Don't Ask, Don't Tell is officially history!!

[freakazoid]

There were incidents back in the 1940s-50s when troops were mixed racially, as well. No surprise or real problem there.

Ok, I must address this specific comment...

Ridiculous comparison, IMO.


As a former member of the military, I think that the comparison has to come as men vs women, to put this in context.


After much thought on this subject, the major concern comes from the fact that military personnel are expected to shower with one another.

Not a problem for men when concerning women.

Concerning women with men IS a problem. So is men with gay men. No way in hell this isn't a problem.

Only answer is to provide personnel with private shower facilities. Good luck with that. Then again, collapsing 99% of our military forts and redesigning them is probably less costly than another 20 years of Bush war.

Like we have a choice.


Also, anyone familiar with the term "frag", probably won't stand next to someone who "does tell".

Sad but true.

 

[Gameface]

Ok, I must address this specific comment...

Ridiculous comparison, IMO.


As a former member of the military, I think that the comparison has to come as men vs women, to put this in context.


After much thought on this subject, the major concern comes from the fact that military personnel are expected to shower with one another.

Not a problem for men when concerning women.

Concerning women with men IS a problem. So is men with gay men. No way in hell this isn't a problem.

Only answer is to provide personnel with private shower facilities. Good luck with that. Then again, collapsing 99% of our military forts and redesigning them is probably less costly than another 20 years of Bush war.

Like we have a choice.


Also, anyone familiar with the term "frag", probably won't stand next to someone who "does tell".

Sad but true.

Ok, I want to address this specific issue. On a Navy ship you have shower stalls. Not a big open shower room like in Starship Troopers. The vast majority of people went into the shower stall in a t-shirt and boxers or shorts. Took their stuff off in the shower and stuffed it up in the corner. Personally I had my clean t-shirt and boxers stuffed in the upper corner. I also got in the habit of showering after lunch, when very few other people showered. Truth be told, that was my "special time" when I took care of my man needs, so I didn't want a lot of company. Anyway, point is, I didn't run around naked in front of other guys and they didn't do that in front of me. That head serviced around 70 people. If there were gay guys around I don't care, I wasn't running around naked just because I figured dudes were straight. I don't want to show my junk off to straight guys anymore than I do gay guys.

In case anyone wants to judge, people either took care of their business in the shower, on the can or in their rack, but business was being done. No need to rape or engage in "situational homosexuality" for me, I just showered after lunch and got things done. Deployments last 6 months, just sayin'.

 

[freakazoid]

*

 

[freakazoid]

**

The Navy doesn't really count.

Ever heard the song "In The Navy" ?

Pretty sure it's a song about gay dudes on a ship.


I think they hang out and end up at the YMCA, where, by coincidence, they have cameras mounted in the mens' room.


That's not all that's mounted.






Seriously though, good for the Navy. I suppose they had private stalls when you went through boot camp?

Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, all soldiers should expect to shower with other soldiers. Dudes, chicks, gays, whatever. Equal but not Seperate.

I look forward to showering with chicks. Youtube here I come.

 

[Gameface]

**

The Navy doesn't really count.

Ever heard the song "In The Navy" ?

Pretty sure it's a song about gay dudes on a ship.


I think they hang out and end up at the YMCA, where, by coincidence, they have cameras mounted in the mens' room.


That's not all that's mounted.






Seriously though, good for the Navy. I suppose they had private stalls when you went through boot camp?

Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, all soldiers should expect to shower with other soldiers. Dudes, chicks, gays, whatever. Equal but not Seperate.

I look forward to showering with chicks. Youtube here I come.

Haha, in boot camp we had what was called the rikki car wash (rikki was slang for recruit). The MA (Master-at-Arms, in boot camp it's a recruit assigned to enforcing discipline in the division) standing in the center of the shower, which was two walls opposing one another with four shower heads on each, and we were supposed to keep walking, lathering up on the first side and rinsing off on the other. If someone tried to stop and engage in a "Hollywood shower" the MA would yell at them to keep moving. A shower lasted about 45 seconds. On Sundays, during holiday routine, you could take a shower when you wanted for a more reasonable amount of time.

So no, I didn't have shower stalls in boot camp. I also set several records in my post-pubescent life, one for amount of time between erections, one before I left and another when my wife visited during pass and review (graduation). The rest are basically a result of the first. They honestly keep you so stressed in boot camp that your sex drive basically turns off, at least in my own experience. Some people said they put something in the food, I thought they were saying softpeter (because that's what it was supposed to do) but come to find out they either were saying or meant to say saltpeter.

 

[One Brow]

If I personally know a veteran who was spit on does that change the notion of it being a myth?

There is no record of businesses posting "No Irish Need Apply" on window signs, in classifed ads, etc. However, many people who were alive pre-WWII remember such signs existed, even though now all you can find are movie props. some things just enter the collective thought of a time and become people's memories.

You can find records of pro-Vietnam and anti-Vietnam protestors spitting at each other. What you can't find is anti-war protestors spitting at veterans. If it happened, it was so rare and isolated it never left a single image. I am perfectly willing to you know a veteran who remembers being spit upon. However, due to how human memory works, he may be remembering something that did not happen.

Two can play that game. Saying homosexuals are weak minded is a denial of the generalization that they aren't.

The first clause is a generalization, the second is not. Since the second clause is not a generalization, you can't deny it as a generalization.

You'll notice wars still continuing with Obama as president and yet not a peep out of the anti-war crowd.

I've noticed quite a few peeps, myself.

Will more homosexuals join the military now? I think some homosexuals used the policy to their advantage by getting honorably discharged when they were ready to leave...possibly after school was paid for.

Then the military wil be better off if such people are either required to serve their time or discouraged from joining.

A pentagon poll suggests only 15% of homosexuals want to be open about it

Now, they still don't have to be open about it, but won't be discharged for having it revealed against their will.

After much thought on this subject, the major concern comes from the fact that military personnel are expected to shower with one another.

Not a problem for men when concerning women.

If you think this was not a problem for interracial units in the 1940s-50s, I'm not sure what to say. YOu do realize that in Jim Crow states, every sort of public facility that used water was segregated, right?

 

[PearlWatson]

I am sure you meant "accept" which means to include, whereas "except" means to leave out.

Thank you for the grammar help.

 

[PearlWatson]

You can find records of pro-Vietnam and anti-Vietnam protestors spitting at each other. What you can't find is anti-war protestors spitting at veterans. If it happened, it was so rare and isolated it never left a single image. I am perfectly willing to you know a veteran who remembers being spit upon. However, due to how human memory works, he may be remembering something that did not happen.

Yes, he is probably just a delusional veteran. My bad for believing him.

 

[moevillini]

...However, due to how human memory works, he may be remembering something that did not happen....

this would seem to be more of an issue of human memory not working...

so it should be "Don't ask, don't tell, and don't pretend you remember anything - 'cause maybe you do, but maybe you don't!"



yes, I've jumped on the non sequitur bandwagon!

 

[One Brow]

Yes, he is probably just a delusional veteran. My bad for believing him.

He would be no more delusional than any other person.

this would seem to be more of an issue of human memory not working...

We're not tape recorders, so we don't work like tape recorders. In some ways, that's a big advantage. Homan memory only seems like it's "not working" if you expect it to work like a tape recorder.

yes, I've jumped on the non sequitur bandwagon!

The vehicle of choice on JazzFanz.

 

[PearlWatson]

I've noticed quite a few peeps, myself.

I'm sure you think you remember peeps, but due to how the liberal memory works, you are remembering something that didn't happen, but don't worry, you are no more delusional than any other liberal.

 

[One Brow]

I'm sure you think you remember peeps, but due to how the liberal memory works, you are remembering something that didn't happen, but don't worry, you are no more delusional than any other liberal.

If I were unable to find any media sources to back up my memory, you would be correct that it was a memory issue.

 

[PearlWatson]

If I were unable to find any media sources to back up my memory, you would be correct that it was a memory issue.

Yes, because if there is no pictorial documentation it has to be a delusion. There is no other alternative.

 

[One Brow]

Yes, because if there is no pictorial documentation it has to be a delusion. There is no other alternative.

I've already mentioned at least two other alternatives, and I have never claimed such a memory would be a delusion.

Still, it's obvious your back is up about this one, so I'll let you have your final rant on it.

 

[franklin]

Ok, I want to address this specific issue. On a Navy ship you have shower stalls. Not a big open shower room like in Starship Troopers. The vast majority of people went into the shower stall in a t-shirt and boxers or shorts. Took their stuff off in the shower and stuffed it up in the corner. Personally I had my clean t-shirt and boxers stuffed in the upper corner. I also got in the habit of showering after lunch, when very few other people showered. Truth be told, that was my "special time" when I took care of my man needs, so I didn't want a lot of company. Anyway, point is, I didn't run around naked in front of other guys and they didn't do that in front of me. That head serviced around 70 people. If there were gay guys around I don't care, I wasn't running around naked just because I figured dudes were straight. I don't want to show my junk off to straight guys anymore than I do gay guys.

In case anyone wants to judge, people either took care of their business in the shower, on the can or in their rack, but business was being done. No need to rape or engage in "situational homosexuality" for me, I just showered after lunch and got things done. Deployments last 6 months, just sayin'.

I'm guessing you either had long showers on your ship or knew a "technique" back then that many 11-year old boys know. You would have been king of BINGO! in the juvenile wards around here.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yes, because if there is no pictorial documentation it has to be a delusion. There is no other alternative.

I guess we can throw eye-witness accounts out of court then. No pictures = it didn't happen.

You say you saw him stab your mother to death with a fork? He tied you up first and taped your eyelids open so you could see everything? Then he told you he killed her and enjoyed doing it? Well, I am sorry sir but if you didn't take out your cell phone and take a picture or video, this so-called "testimony" that you supposedly "saw" is inadmissable. You could just be remembering things that didn't happen. Mr. Defendant you may go free.

 

[Gameface]

I'm guessing you either had long showers on your ship or knew a "technique" back then that many 11-year old boys know. You would have been king of BINGO! in the juvenile wards around here.

I was on a nuclear aircraft carrier. Fresh water was abundant because it is used to cool the reactors and to power the steam catapult system (it takes about 200 gallons of water to launch an aircraft). My ship produced 400,000 gallons of fresh water a day. I know that conventionally powered ships had to watch their water supply closely and long showeres were not allowed, but on my ship it was not an issue.

 

[PearlWatson]

I guess we can throw eye-witness accounts out of court then. No pictures = it didn't happen.

You say you saw him stab your mother to death with a fork? He tied you up first and taped your eyelids open so you could see everything? Then he told you he killed her and enjoyed doing it? Well, I am sorry sir but if you didn't take out your cell phone and take a picture or video, this so-called "testimony" that you supposedly "saw" is inadmissable. You could just be remembering things that didn't happen. Mr. Defendant you may go free.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. Unibrow was claiming since there is no pictures of Vietnam vets getting spit on then it is a myth. I was just using his logic against him.

 

[PearlWatson]

I've already mentioned at least two other alternatives, and I have never claimed such a memory would be a delusion.

Still, it's obvious your back is up about this one, so I'll let you have your final rant on it.

So it could have happened but just not the veteran who told me about being spit upon? He must have had a false memory?

 

[One Brow]

I guess we can throw eye-witness accounts out of court then. No pictures = it didn't happen.

I take it you are unaware of the various research studies on the reliability of eyewitnesses? Eyewitnesses can be wrong for any number of different reasons. I'm certainly not saying they are always unreliable. People are much more accurate in identifying perpetrators that they saw for an extended period (as in your scenario), that they know well, etc. They are much worse at recalling the details of brief incidents.