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Gobert should start

orangello said:
Not that I disagree but what makes you say that? I was too young to remember when Eaton played.
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Too slow and one dimensional.

At least guys like deandre jordan and drummond, though being one dimensional, can still move well enough.

Eaton was kinda like a roy hibbert with less offense. (roy hibbert would have probably been pretty effective back in the days of mark eaton)

Edit: also fesenko :)
 
fishonjazz said:
Too slow and one dimensional.

At least guys like deandre jordan and drummond, though being one dimensional, can still move well enough.

Eaton was kinda like a roy hibbert with less offense. (roy hibbert would have probably been pretty effective back in the days of mark eaton)

Edit: also fesenko :)
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Agree. The rules have completely changed. By the same token, some of the elite offensive players we see today would have been much less effective in the 80's. Not saying they wouldn't be great, but you even breathe on someone like Durant, James, Kobe (or Wade a few years ago) and the whistle blows. Back in the 80's/90's, players could actually play defense and make a little contact. That was the philosophy of Sloan's defense: funnel the play to the inside where Mountain Man Eaton would be waiting to impede the play or block the shot. Certainly players becoming more efficient shooting 3's has made that strategy obsolete, but so too have the many rule changes which have favored the offense in every single instance. NBA WANTS scoring, not defensive battles.
 
Core4 said:
but so too have the many rule changes which have favored the offense in every single instance. NBA WANTS scoring, not defensive battles.
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How did changing the illegal defense rule and moving the 3-point line back favor the offense?
 
GVC said:
Eaton would be a scrub in today's NBA.
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I'm not even certain how to respond to this. Do you care to elaborate in any way that would attempt to validate this assertion?
 
infection said:
I'm not even certain how to respond to this. Do you care to elaborate in any way that would attempt to validate this assertion?
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I think in eatons day there were a lot more big white stiffs...... will purdue, luke longley, bill wenington......And also a fair amount of big black stiffs.

Today's nba it's based more on speed and athleticism than on size.
Back in eatons day being big was enough...... not the case so much today

Also a lot of today's big guys are better shooters and would pull eaton away from the hoop making him less effective
 
fishonjazz said:
I think in eatons day there were a lot more big white stiffs...... will purdue, luke longley, bill wenington......And also a fair amount of big black stiffs.

Today's nba it's based more on speed and athleticism than on size.
Back in eatons day being big was enough...... not the case so much today

Also a lot of today's big guys are better shooters and would pull eaton away from the hoop making him less effective
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So this would make him a scrub in today's NBA?
 
infection said:
I'm not even certain how to respond to this. Do you care to elaborate in any way that would attempt to validate this assertion?
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On the defensive end, bigs have to be a lot more mobile with the changes to the hand checking rules. Guards need a lot more help on pick and rolls.

On the offensive end, with changes to illegal defense rules, and the way teams load up on the strong side and pack the paint, it's a lot harder to hide a player who can't consistently hit a jump shot.

FWIW, I think college teams today would be pretty competitive in the NBA of the 1980s.
 
fishonjazz said:
I think in eatons day there were a lot more big white stiffs...... will purdue, luke longley, bill wenington......And also a fair amount of big black stiffs.

Today's nba it's based more on speed and athleticism than on size.
Back in eatons day being big was enough...... not the case so much today

Also a lot of today's big guys are better shooters and would pull eaton away from the hoop making him less effective
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The league has changed, but I think Eaton would still dominate today. People don't remember what a defensive force he was. I encourage you to check out old footage of him. He had some amazing blocks on very athletic players. Not to mention the 1000s of shots he altered.

Many on this board were probably too young to ever see him play.
 
GVC said:
On the defensive end, bigs have to be a lot more mobile with the changes to the hand checking rules. Guards need a lot more help on pick and rolls.

On the offensive end, with changes to illegal defense rules, and the way teams load up on the strong side and pack the paint, it's a lot harder to hide a player who can't consistently hit a jump shot.

FWIW, I think college teams today would be pretty competitive in the NBA of the 1980s.
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A well executed pick and roll would be effective hand check or not.

On the flip side, on D, the defensive 3 seconds vs illegal defense gives the big center more flexibility in the paint. I think the current rules would affect Eaton, but I still think he would do really well.
 
JAZZGASM said:
A well executed pick and roll would be effective hand check or not.

On the flip side, on D, the defensive 3 seconds vs illegal defense gives the big center more flexibility in the paint. I think the current rules would affect Eaton, but I still think he would do really well.
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1. Then where have all the lumbering giants gone? The only player anything like Eaton in today's NBA is Roy Hibbert, but he's still a much better athlete than Eaton ever was.

2. A well executed pick and roll, sure, but what I was trying to get at is that today's guards and wings are able to consistently create better separation from their defenders. Bigs are required to help AND recover a lot more quickly now than they were in the 1980s. That today's guards and wings are a lot stronger and quicker doesn't help.
 
GVC said:
1. Then where have all the lumbering giants gone? The only player anything like Eaton in today's NBA is Roy Hibbert, but he's still a much better athlete than Eaton ever was.

2. A well executed pick and roll, sure, but what I was trying to get at is that today's guards and wings are able to consistently create better separation from their defenders. Bigs are required to help AND recover a lot more quickly now than they were in the 1980s. That today's guards and wings are a lot stronger and quicker doesn't help.
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I am not disagreeing with your comments regarding the change in rules, I just think Eaton could still do well in today's game. I remember plenty of times when he helped with small guys on pick and rolls and did great.

As much as guards need help on picks, Eaton was a FORCE inside. The mid range game is the least effective in the NBA. I think the net effective of Eaton would be very positive. I'd give up more open mid-range shots off the pick than easy points in the paint any day. On the flip side, centers have become smaller (and worse defenders). I think Eaton's limited offensive game would look better against todays big's.

Fess could have done well if he had any desire. And he didn't have Eaton's length. Less effective in today's game, no doubt, but he could have still been a defensive force.

Hell, there were plenty of white stiffs back then, but most couldn't hold a candle to Eaton.
 
GVC said:
1. Then where have all the lumbering giants gone? The only player anything like Eaton in today's NBA is Roy Hibbert, but he's still a much better athlete than Eaton ever was.

2. A well executed pick and roll, sure, but what I was trying to get at is that today's guards and wings are able to consistently create better separation from their defenders. Bigs are required to help AND recover a lot more quickly now than they were in the 1980s. That today's guards and wings are a lot stronger and quicker doesn't help.
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I get the argument that you're making and it's quite reasonable to presume that the way the game has changed would hamper some of the strengths that made Eaton effective. The problem I'm having is this:

You're saying that a guy who is one of the best defensive big men of all time, a former all star, a 2x defensive player of the year in an era where people actually played it, the all-time leader in blocks per game, and a guy who Hakeem Olajuwon said was the toughest matchup he ever had to go against, would be a scrub in today's game? When? His rookie year? Mid career? Nearing retirement? I suppose if you've got a team coached by a D'Antoni or Don Nelson, or had a roster assembled by David Kahn, then maybe this would be a reasonable position. But we're talking about a scrub. The chronological elitism is ludicrous.

Though there's been a movement of big guys being able to shoot more from the outside (more fours than fives) the vast majority (especially considering guys off the bench) are not producing in such a manner to render an Eaton useless. Rule changes allowing for a zone would increase his value for any team wishing to have a legit anchor off the bench to run a zone. The proliferation of guys who are athletic slashers without any outside game would further highlight his lane-clogging presence. In today's game he'd get paid. And he'd play. He wouldn't be getting 30+ minutes like he did on his prime, but he'd be seeing the floor and contributing in meaningful ways. Yeah, there aren't many lumbering stiffs in today's game. But it's not like those lumbering stiffs out of a job now would have magically been solid guys on an 80s/90s squad.

Pavel Podkolzine couldn't make it in today's NBA. It's not because he's a modern-day Mark Eaton. 25 years ago he wouldn't have been Mark Eaton. Today's stiffs aren't Mark Eaton.
 
infection said:
You're saying that a guy who is one of the best defensive big men of all time, a former all star, a 2x defensive player of the year in an era where people actually played it, the all-time leader in blocks per game, and a guy who Hakeem Olajuwon said was the toughest matchup he ever had to go against, would be a scrub in today's game?
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1. Defense in the 1980s was hilariously non-existent. It's the biggest reason I can't stand watching basketball from that era; getting open shots was incredibly easy. It was the defense and overall physicality in the mid-1990s that forced the NBA to make rule changes to open the game up.

2. Maybe "scrub" is a bit strong. Still, I find it hard to believe that Eaton would do well against most matchups he'd face in today's NBA. He's a less mobile, less skilled Hibbert. He played in a post-centric era, where his strengths far outweighed his weaknesses. I don't think that would be the case now.
 
The thing Eaton had that really made him the player he was was a very good sense of timing and good reaction times. He could recover and block multiple shots, he followed the ball well and knew when to make the move for the block. Not easy for any big to duplicate. That would still translate into today's NBA and he would be a paint enforcer especially with a zone.
 
GVC said:
1. Defense in the 1980s was hilariously non-existent. It's the biggest reason I can't stand watching basketball from that era; getting open shots was incredibly easy. It was the defense and overall physicality in the mid-1990s that forced the NBA to make rule changes to open the game up.
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It's always funny to me when people act like there was defense being played in the 80s. Nobody played a lick of defense until Detroit showed that by playing defense you could beat more talented teams like the Lakers and Celtics - teams that had always been able to win by just out-scoring everybody. The Bulls, with Jordan and Pippen knew they had to defend in order to beat the Pistons and by the time the Bulls beat the Lakers in 91, NBA teams knew they'd better figure it out and that is what led to the mid-90s ugliness you mention above.
 
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