Anderson was never much better than when he played for Utah. After 3 years in Utah as a solid back-up, he had his best season in Houston, where he put up 12 ppg as a starter. Wes is already as a starter putting up 20 ppg, while shooting great from the floor and 3, and playing outstanding difference, in just his second year. We just lost a young all star caliber player, because we underrated him, and comparing that loss to Anderson's loss, whose career year is significantly worse than Wes' sophomore season simply does not make any sense. I mean if Deron Williams bolts, by the same logic will you compare him to Howard Eisley's loss?
KOC had a terrible off-season
- Thread starter oldtimer
- Start date
Anderson was never much better than when he played for Utah. After 3 years in Utah as a solid back-up, he had his best season in Houston, where he put up 12 ppg as a starter. Wes is already as a starter putting up 20 ppg, while shooting great from the floor and 3, and playing outstanding difference, in just his second year. We just lost a young all star caliber player, because we underrated him, and comparing that loss to Anderson's loss, whose career year is significantly worse than Wes' sophomore season simply does not make any sense. I mean if Deron Williams bolts, by the same logic will you compare him to Howard Eisley's loss?
I think Shandon was another one of those guys like Bryon Russel, who looked better in the Jazz system, but could'nt quite pull it off anywhere else. But with Wes you could see that he had the skills and drive to succeed anywhere.The one thing that Wes brought was consistency. I was arguing with Miles homers in the other thread, who, in an attempt to defend Miles, were suggesting that Wes was also not consistent last year. Not at all true.Wes was smart enough to know when he was not hot and did'nt try to shoot himself back into the game.
But having said all that, I still maintain that he is'nt the game changer for the Jazz. I think since we are struggling a bit with consistency at the wings now, we are desperate for any improvement and Wes suddenly seems much more valuable than he actually is.
His current stats could end up being fool's gold in the playoffs for the Blazers.
Is he more consistent and a little bit better than some of our wings? Yes. I'd rather have him than Miles or Hayward at this point. But is he the missing wing that we need to be championship-contenders? Not at all. By saving 3 mil/yr in salary with Bell, we are actually saving almost 6 mil every year, if you consider the LT. I am not sure Wes is worth spending another 6 mil/yr more.
But having said all that, I still maintain that he is'nt the game changer for the Jazz. I think since we are struggling a bit with consistency at the wings now, we are desperate for any improvement and Wes suddenly seems much more valuable than he actually is.
His current stats could end up being fool's gold in the playoffs for the Blazers.
Is he more consistent and a little bit better than some of our wings? Yes. I'd rather have him than Miles or Hayward at this point. But is he the missing wing that we need to be championship-contenders? Not at all. By saving 3 mil/yr in salary with Bell, we are actually saving almost 6 mil every year, if you consider the LT. I am not sure Wes is worth spending another 6 mil/yr more.
actually, more like 15.7 ppg, 46% shooting and 36% 3FG
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4694
Not saying those numbers are bad, but just for the sake of being correct.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Wesley Matthews. And if we were, and you think Wes Matthews is an "all star caliber player" well...good for you I guess?
The higher numbers I mentioned are as a starter. Wes won starting job from Batum.
$7.2 whole millions? Wow that's expensive! Considering the Jazz are losing over $27 mm in the next two years in AK and Memo, I'm sure Wes Matthews 7.2 would have bankrupt the Millers for sure. Consider the Jazz in 2012:
Deron - 17.7
AJ - 15
Millsap - 7.2
Wes 6.5
That's a solid 1-4 for under $47 million. They'd have oodles left to fill up the roster with 4-5 million dollar guys. They could sign another potential all star such as David Lee if they wanted to. 2010 FA had excellent players that nobody could afford. Last season saw deals like Brandon Bass had for $4 million, JJ Barea 1.8mm, Al Harrington 5.7mm, Luis Scola signed for less than $8, Grant Hill's 1 year deal was 3.3, blocking and rebounding of Darko for 4.2, 3 pt leader Matt Bonner @ 3mm, Udonis Haslem for 3.5, Kwame Brown for the minimum, Shannon Brown for not much more, Drew Gooden for 5.7 Matt Barnes could have been bought by a serious contender.
Add a roster like:
Darko - 4.2
Backups
Bass - 4
Barea - 1.8
Haslem - 3.5
S. Brown - 2.2
Bonner - 3
You're solid through 10 for $65 million. Matthews contract would not have hurt the Jazz one bit.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
The current CBA expires in 2011 so you have no idea how many "oodles" the Jazz will be able to spend in 2012 because you have no idea what the new CBA is going to be. If you do, then please let the basketball world in on it.
But just for kicks, let's say the current salary cap/luxury tax figures are the same in 2012. With their current committed salaries the Jazz would be $1.2 million over the cap. If you add in Matthews' 2012 figures they would be $5 million under the tax with only 6 players under contract - $5 million to spend to fill 6 roster spots. Now that's all foolish speculation because the new CBA will bear little resemblence to the current one, but the Jazz have alot of money tied up in DWill, Jefferson and Millsap. They didn't want to dole out a ton more over 5 years for a player they weren't sure how much better he would get. Matthews may prove them wrong, but IMO it's still too early to declare the move a failure. Then again, this is Jazzfanz so we all must overreact instantaneously whenver the Jazz are "struggling."
Also, Haslem gave the Heat a hometown discount to play in his homestate and on a contender so he signed for 5 yrs $20 million. Heaven help you if you think the 4 year $20 million deal signed by Darko was solid.
But just for kicks, let's say the current salary cap/luxury tax figures are the same in 2012. With their current committed salaries the Jazz would be $1.2 million over the cap. If you add in Matthews' 2012 figures they would be $5 million under the tax with only 6 players under contract - $5 million to spend to fill 6 roster spots. Now that's all foolish speculation because the new CBA will bear little resemblence to the current one, but the Jazz have alot of money tied up in DWill, Jefferson and Millsap. They didn't want to dole out a ton more over 5 years for a player they weren't sure how much better he would get. Matthews may prove them wrong, but IMO it's still too early to declare the move a failure. Then again, this is Jazzfanz so we all must overreact instantaneously whenver the Jazz are "struggling."
Also, Haslem gave the Heat a hometown discount to play in his homestate and on a contender so he signed for 5 yrs $20 million. Heaven help you if you think the 4 year $20 million deal signed by Darko was solid.
Sure, there's a little speculation around the new CBA. That doesn't mean the Jazz should stick their heads in the sand and not prepare at all. Your committed salaries aren't applicable to a hypothetical scenario where Matthews was resigned (I doubt Bell would have been signed for starters). Your numbers are wrong anyway. I rechecked, and the only salary I left out was Hayward's 2.7mm. The total the AFTER AK AND MEMO contracts expire is $49.4. KOC is good enough to work his CBA magic and get the exemptions required to go over the cap.
You may disagree with the ability to land Haslem, but there are plenty others on the list. If you think a seven footer who is averaging 2.4 blocks and 5.4 rebounds in 24 minutes isn't worth $4 million then you aren't worth listening to. Darko isn't a star, but he'd be a solid center or backup on a Jazz team with D-Will, Matthews, Millsap, and AJ.
You seem to be a little confused. Memo's contract doesn't expire at the end of this season. He has another year.
https://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/jazz.jsp
With Raja and CJ Miles we have $59,615,072 tied up.
Without Raja and CJ we would have $52,675,072.
hey now. After a rough start Darko has played pretty well. If you want to talk about a bad contract how about Haywood in Dallas.
Should I bold, italicize, and underline specific details for you? This wasn't even on another page or anything:
What's with all the inability to read around here lately? Y'all married to an idea err something?
Step #1 Turn brain on
Step #2 Read what is written.
Step #3 Comprehend what is written
Step #4 Form thought
Step #5 Double check step #1 before hitting the "post" button
GVC
Well-Known Member
Your number still doesn't make sense though. AK and Memo combine to make about $27.8mil this season. AK expires this coming summer, and Memo makes about $10.9mil next season. In the next two years, the Jazz will be paying Memo and AK at least $38.7mil (barring trade). Sure this is more than $27mil, but it's strange you chose that number (since you said "in the next two years").
The biggest problem signing Matthews was luxury tax hit this year. Next year we are shedding 18 mil of AK salary and get some relief. We don't need to sign a replacement SF, because we just drafted a SF with top 10 pick, who will be under contract. Take a look at the numbers: https://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah.htm
And for this year, Wes counts 5.7 mil against the CAP. Raja counts 3. So, we are not talking about crazy difference this year here. Perhaps if we kept Wes, we wouldn't sign Raja and Elson. Would you rather have a young player like Wes over 2 guys near end of their careers, like Elson and Raja. The difference in salary is only 1.1 mil. Raja is struggling to produce now what Wes did last year in his rookie season. And Raja will only get worse. For the difference in salary, isn't it apparent now that we should have kept a 24 year old guy, who in second year, when starting, is producing nearly 20 ppg on good shooting and playing good defense? Jazz made a huge blunder here, and I am not sure why there is even a debate on this given today's performance of the players in question and their upside (or lack thereof in case of Raja).
DutchJazzer
Banned
agreeed we is a near al;l star when roy isnt hogging the ball on isos
Actually, it seems like having other teams set the market turned out to be not necessarily a horrible thing, because all the players that got the offers from other teams are actually outperforming their contracts. The problem is that every time KOC matched (Miles, Millsap), we made out pretty well, keeping good players, who later performed better than their salary. But the problem is, ever time we did not match, we looked like idiots. Mo Williams became an all star after KOC refused to match 2 mil dollar offer. And now Wes is playing like he will be one as well, and he is only paid mid-level.
What I fail to understand is why after having players for a whole year Jazz cannot make a better decision than Portland (Wes) or Cleveland (Mo) could about these players. And the funny thing is, Sloan raved about both Mo and Wes. So, FO knew we had good players, it’s just FO was unable to value them properly. Even when Portland signed Millsap to offer sheet, I remember KOC being furious that Jazz had to pay him that much, instead of thanking Portland for allowing him to keep Millsap for less than what he is worth. I just don’t get it. I mean Wes had a rookie year that’s actually not that far off from the rookie year Williams had. He then played even better in play-offs. He was regarded as the best defender on the team, according to the formula the team developed. Why is that not worth a mid-level?
When Jazz didn’t match, it was said that luxury tax this year is the reason. But then we turned around and signed old men Raja and Elson for only a million less than Wes’ CAP hit this year. Really we didn’t save much money on these luxury tax penalties. And next year we shed 18 mil of AK’s salary, so luxury tax will not be a problem (if there is lux tax even with new CBA, but either way, we are losing 18 mil dollar AK salary). The stupidity here, lack of foresight, and inability to evaluate your own players, especially after Mo Williams incident (and then Millsap and CJ matching turning out really well for us), is mind boggling. Jazz FO keeps making same mistakes over and over again.
I can reluctantly understand if you don’t have money to pay in luxury tax this year with AK making 18 mil, Okur, etc, you are forced to lose players (even though no one made KOC give Okur an extension when his stock was at all time high nor sign AK to MAX, when no other team could pay him that much, nor just dropping AK when he offered 0 dollar buy-out, nor trading AK for expiring TMac or Marion contracts). The kicker here is that we spent about the same luxury tax amount for old players (Raja, Elson) who are almost done as we would for young and improving Wes this year. I just can’t fathom this idiocy by FO. In the meantime old man Raja, who is signed for 3 years and will certainly not be getting any better, only worse, can’t even match what Wes gave us last year as a rookie. Isn’t it obvious now that KOC simply failed on this one? We didn’t save much money this year over old men we signed later, and we ended up with much inferior talent, while the guy who actually had great rookie year for us, almost like Deron, is putting up near all star numbers as a starter for a play-off team. And Wes actually wanted to be in Utah, unlike many other NBA players, who ranked Utah the least desirable place in NBA. Can anyone really disagree that KOC majorly screwed up here?
What I fail to understand is why after having players for a whole year Jazz cannot make a better decision than Portland (Wes) or Cleveland (Mo) could about these players. And the funny thing is, Sloan raved about both Mo and Wes. So, FO knew we had good players, it’s just FO was unable to value them properly. Even when Portland signed Millsap to offer sheet, I remember KOC being furious that Jazz had to pay him that much, instead of thanking Portland for allowing him to keep Millsap for less than what he is worth. I just don’t get it. I mean Wes had a rookie year that’s actually not that far off from the rookie year Williams had. He then played even better in play-offs. He was regarded as the best defender on the team, according to the formula the team developed. Why is that not worth a mid-level?
When Jazz didn’t match, it was said that luxury tax this year is the reason. But then we turned around and signed old men Raja and Elson for only a million less than Wes’ CAP hit this year. Really we didn’t save much money on these luxury tax penalties. And next year we shed 18 mil of AK’s salary, so luxury tax will not be a problem (if there is lux tax even with new CBA, but either way, we are losing 18 mil dollar AK salary). The stupidity here, lack of foresight, and inability to evaluate your own players, especially after Mo Williams incident (and then Millsap and CJ matching turning out really well for us), is mind boggling. Jazz FO keeps making same mistakes over and over again.
I can reluctantly understand if you don’t have money to pay in luxury tax this year with AK making 18 mil, Okur, etc, you are forced to lose players (even though no one made KOC give Okur an extension when his stock was at all time high nor sign AK to MAX, when no other team could pay him that much, nor just dropping AK when he offered 0 dollar buy-out, nor trading AK for expiring TMac or Marion contracts). The kicker here is that we spent about the same luxury tax amount for old players (Raja, Elson) who are almost done as we would for young and improving Wes this year. I just can’t fathom this idiocy by FO. In the meantime old man Raja, who is signed for 3 years and will certainly not be getting any better, only worse, can’t even match what Wes gave us last year as a rookie. Isn’t it obvious now that KOC simply failed on this one? We didn’t save much money this year over old men we signed later, and we ended up with much inferior talent, while the guy who actually had great rookie year for us, almost like Deron, is putting up near all star numbers as a starter for a play-off team. And Wes actually wanted to be in Utah, unlike many other NBA players, who ranked Utah the least desirable place in NBA. Can anyone really disagree that KOC majorly screwed up here?
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
If you're dead how come you keep posting?
vslice02
Well-Known Member
I'm on record that my position is I'm not declaring this move a mistake and won't call it a major blunder until atleast 1 full season and offseason have passed. I prefer to wait until we see the new CBA and wait until we see how much flexibility the Jazz will have in it.
However, if it means this garbage thread will stop getting bumped, then by all means - not matching on future all-star Wes Matthews was the worst move in the history of professional sporsts and I'm not sure this franchise or the state of Utah can ever recover from it. I hope Matthews lights up the Jazz for 40 in a blowout tonight just to stick it to KOC for being such a big dummy.
However, if it means this garbage thread will stop getting bumped, then by all means - not matching on future all-star Wes Matthews was the worst move in the history of professional sporsts and I'm not sure this franchise or the state of Utah can ever recover from it. I hope Matthews lights up the Jazz for 40 in a blowout tonight just to stick it to KOC for being such a big dummy.