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Police Power and Racial Tensions in Ferguson, Missouri

I can't comment on this because I think it's BS. At what point will they no longer be able to claim oppression? Is it an eternal thing? As long as people keep feeding "oppressed" people their pity and welfare, it will be much harder for those oppressed to get out from under the boot of their alleged oppressors.
1. I hope I'd never claim oppression or expect anyone else to solve my problems.

2. The Civil Rights Act was signed 50 years ago. That's pretty recent IMO. What African Americans endured before then (and some would say continue to endure) was incredible.


...we're talking about an entire race of people (black folks, as you call them) who are content with being the victims.
Yikes. I'm going to assume you didn't mean to overgeneralize like this. Are you confident in this assessment?


The greatest athletes in the world are black. The best actors and actresses are black. The President is black. The greatest scientist alive right now is black. There is no excuse anymore. None. Stop making excuses for them.
I wouldn't call what I'm doing "making excuses". I just think it's important to consider the history of race relations in America, and what it means to be a minority, when considering cases like this (and, in particular, why the reaction has been so strong).
 
Yes I do.



Yes I do. Utah liquor laws are a good example of this. As opposed to crimes like drugs, the people who are affected by Utah's antiquated, BS laws can just take their business elsewhere where it's totally legal. The state and the residents suffer from poor tax base, poor image, etc. probably not what you were talking about, but I brought it up because that is an example where I agree with you. Where I don't agree with you is criminal law.



Yes. How people go about being upset is another issue. You don't get things changed by rioting and looting, but by getting involved and playing the game.



I can't comment on this because I think it's BS. At what point will they no longer be able to claim oppression? Is it an eternal thing? As long as people keep feeding "oppressed" people their pity and welfare, it will be much harder for those oppressed to get out from under the boot of their alleged oppressors.

Keep in mind, we're not talking about homeless people, or mentally handicapped people, or gay people, or people in actual distress, we're talking about an entire race of people (black folks, as you call them) who are content with being the victims. The greatest athletes in the world are black. The best actors and actresses are black. The President is black. The greatest scientist alive right now is black. There is no excuse anymore. None. Stop making excuses for them.



Likewise.

The best actors and actresses are black? Lol. What?

And who is this scientist? I'm genuinely asking.
 
1. I hope I'd never claim oppression or expect anyone else to solve my problems.

Me either. I don't know why you felt the need to proclaim this fact, but there ya go.

2. The Civil Rights Act was signed 50 years ago. That's pretty recent IMO. What African Americans endured before then (and some would say continue to endure) was incredible.

I don't disagree that it was incredible, but 50 years may have been a long time in earlier times and civilizations, but there is so much opportunity to succeed, and the world has never been as accepting as it is today, that the time of excuses is over.

Yikes. I'm going to assume you didn't mean to overgeneralize like this. Are you confident in this assessment?

No, I'm not, but in the context of this conversation, where you've stated that an entire race is oppressed because of the white man, I am.

I wouldn't call what I'm doing "making excuses". I just think it's important to consider the history of race relations in America, and what it means to be a minority, when considering cases like this (and, in particular, why the reaction has been so strong).

I think it has been considered and then some. It just seems that since my consideration didn't end up with the same conclusion as yours, I'm automatically a dumbass not worthy of your intellectual prowess. Trouty don't play dat. I may very well be wrong -- wouldn't be the first time -- I'm not a minority and never have been (at least outside of porn circles), so I understand where you and BabyWienerzz are coming from. I simply disagree.
 
It is crazy. Take Halle Berry off the list and I loathe any/all movies those actors are in. You can't deny that they are amazing at their craft and obviously very popular.

What? Denzel is great. Though it would be nice if he played someone other than a law enforcement officer.
 
It just seems that since my consideration didn't end up with the same conclusion as yours, I'm automatically a dumbass not worthy of your intellectual prowess.
What "conclusion" are you referring to? I really think you've misinterpreted virtually everything I've written in this thread. I'd suggest you go back to my first post and read it again. Perhaps read the subsequent posts as well. Is it really all that surprising that the reaction has been strong given the history of oppression (even if you only consider slavery, Jim Crow, etc.) and the disproportionate effect of changes in law enforcement (even if you think the race element is purely coincidental)?
 
Yes, we have had oppression in this country. What the white man did to Native Americans was worse imo (mostly inadvertent due to new diseases introduced).

And I know there are cops that profile, but they all don't. And to assume so is ridiculous. Even if there is overarching oppression, it is hard to be really sympathetic when you know the guy just committed a strong arm robbery. Other incidents that happen to truly innocent blacks should be what we get enraged about. Not this. So my honest question is this: how do you fix the oppression problem?
 
In threads like this I typically chime in on the technical aspects of firearms usage. I hope that doesn't make it seem like I'm taking the side of law enforcement in general on race issues. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Babypeters and GVC are forcing me to think about this issue in its broader scope. Now, first off, I don't know the specifics of what happened in this shooting. My inclination is that the officer was threatened and made a decision to use lethal force and ultimately I don't think he will be found guilty of a wrongful use of force.

That said, I find many of the comments here to be much like the comments in regard to illegal immigration. Clearly someone crossing our boarder without going through the proper channels is committing a crime. It's easy enough to sit back and say I'm not racist, but them Mexicans need to follow our laws if they want to be in our country. That's an easily defensible stand to take. They break the law, they are not welcome here. But ignores the much much bigger issue, which is that our immigration system, our immigration policies and our immigration enforcement are all broken...unless the goal is to keep people unlike ourselves our of "our" country. If that's the goal then the best course is to claim not to be racist and to throw our hands in the air and stand behind the letter of the law.

But there is a huge evil taking place in our country right now. It is absolutely disgusting and it is undermining our national strength and besmirching our national identity. We have essentially re-instituted Jim Crow but in stealth mode. It's easy. Simply give police officers (honest hard working people at their core) mandates in minority neighborhoods to aggressively enforce laws that are commonly broken by all people in all neighborhoods at essentially the same rate, and give officers in white neighborhoods a mandate to ignore the small stuff and maintain positive community relations. The best part is, it doesn't have to be a top-down conspiracy. You just say that in poor, high crime neighborhoods it is necessary to be more aggressive in "fighting crime" which in most cases means enforcing drug laws for simple possession. From there you stop and frisk, stop and search, stop and interrogate, stop and harass the local populace. That's really all there is to it. If those same tactics were used in Sandy Utah we'd see significant portions of our young adults going to court and being sent to prison. Do that for 50 years and Sandy Utah would be a hell hole that hated the police. So many of their young men would be ex cons that they wouldn't be able to get decent work. They wouldn't be productive members of society. They would be playing the victim card, as it were, and the rest of us could sit comfortably and debate what it is about the people of sandy that causes them to have such inclinations to lawlessness and violence.

There are problems that need to be fixed. We can't argue the technicalities of an individual case and ignore what brought us here. We need to fix the evils that permeate our law enforcement models and our legal systems.

But we don't really need to...if we're happy to disenfranchise the black community and lock their sons in cages because we never liked them anyway.
 
In threads like this I typically chime in on the technical aspects of firearms usage. I hope that doesn't make it seem like I'm taking the side of law enforcement in general on race issues. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Babypeters and GVC are forcing me to think about this issue in its broader scope. Now, first off, I don't know the specifics of what happened in this shooting. My inclination is that the officer was threatened and made a decision to use lethal force and ultimately I don't think he will be found guilty of a wrongful use of force.

That said, I find many of the comments here to be much like the comments in regard to illegal immigration. Clearly someone crossing our boarder without going through the proper channels is committing a crime. It's easy enough to sit back and say I'm not racist, but them Mexicans need to follow our laws if they want to be in our country. That's an easily defensible stand to take. They break the law, they are not welcome here. But ignores the much much bigger issue, which is that our immigration system, our immigration policies and our immigration enforcement are all broken...unless the goal is to keep people unlike ourselves our of "our" country. If that's the goal then the best course is to claim not to be racist and to throw our hands in the air and stand behind the letter of the law.

But there is a huge evil taking place in our country right now. It is absolutely disgusting and it is undermining our national strength and besmirching our national identity. We have essentially re-instituted Jim Crow but in stealth mode. It's easy. Simply give police officers (honest hard working people at their core) mandates in minority neighborhoods to aggressively enforce laws that are commonly broken by all people in all neighborhoods at essentially the same rate, and give officers in white neighborhoods a mandate to ignore the small stuff and maintain positive community relations. The best part is, it doesn't have to be a top-down conspiracy. You just say that in poor, high crime neighborhoods it is necessary to be more aggressive in "fighting crime" which in most cases means enforcing drug laws for simple possession. From there you stop and frisk, stop and search, stop and interrogate, stop and harass the local populace. That's really all there is to it. If those same tactics were used in Sandy Utah we'd see significant portions of our young adults going to court and being sent to prison. Do that for 50 years and Sandy Utah would be a hell hole that hated the police. So many of their young men would be ex cons that they wouldn't be able to get decent work. They wouldn't be productive members of society. They would be playing the victim card, as it were, and the rest of us could sit comfortably and debate what it is about the people of sandy that causes them to have such inclinations to lawlessness and violence.

There are problems that need to be fixed. We can't argue the technicalities of an individual case and ignore what brought us here. We need to fix the evils that permeate our law enforcement models and our legal systems.

But we don't really need to...if we're happy to disenfranchise the black community and lock their sons in cages because we never liked them anyway.

Is there really evidence of this, or is it just conjecture? My friend got six months in jail for a having an 1/8 of weed in Utah because he sold a joint to a friend. (Dude was a hippy, not a dealer). He was thrown down on theground when arrested. I know one example does not prove anything, but many high class hoods are tough on "petty crime" This was in an upper class, white neighborhood. I think you could just as easily say that more crimes do actually occur in poor neighborhoods, so more arrests. I can see the argument going either way. However, does this not affect all poor people that commit crimes equally? And yes, I understand blacks are generally poorer, but so are many people of other races. So again, I ask honestly, what is the fix?
 
Is there really evidence of this, or is it just conjecture? My friend got six months in jail for a having an 1/8 of weed in Utah because he sold a joint to a friend. (Dude was a hippy, not a dealer). He was thrown down on theground when arrested. I know one example does not prove anything, but many high class hoods are tough on "petty crime" This was in an upper class, white neighborhood. I think you could just as easily say that more crimes do actually occur in poor neighborhoods, so more arrests. I can see the argument going either way. However, does this not affect all poor people that commit crimes equally? And yes, I understand blacks are generally poorer, but so are many people of other races. So again, I ask honestly, what is the fix?


White middle class people use marijuana at the same rate that Mexicans and Black people do. Look at the stats on arrests and convictions. Keep in mind while looking at the stats that White people make up a majority of the U.S. population.

Look at the arrests per capita, then throw that out. Now look at 100 white people and 100 black people charged with simple possession. Notice the conviction rate. Now throw that out. Now look at 100 white people and 100 black people convicted of simple possession and notice the sentence. Who's going to prison and who's not. Who's serving long terms and who's not.
 
White middle class people use marijuana at the same rate that Mexicans and Black people do. Look at the stats on arrests and convictions. Keep in mind while looking at the stats that White people make up a majority of the U.S. population.

Look at the arrests per capita, then throw that out. Now look at 100 white people and 100 black people charged with simple possession. Notice the conviction rate. Now throw that out. Now look at 100 white people and 100 black people convicted of simple possession and notice the sentence. Who's going to prison and who's not. Who's serving long terms and who's not.

I agree with much of this, but convictions are not the same as arrests. And now you are discussing sentencing, which again affects poor people without a good attorney. I want to see per capita stats of poor people. I would guess arrest rates are similar across the board, for the poor,because there is more police force is these areas.

I understand the net effect is blacks get the raw end of the stick. All I see are people complaining though. Whay is the solution? Do you stop policing high crime areas? I am guessing the law abiding citizens in these communities would disagree. Not trying to be argumentative, but I have not heard a good solution by anyone.
 
I agree with much of this, but convictions are not the same as arrests. And now you are discussing sentencing, which again affects poor people without a good attorney. I want to see per capita stats of poor people. I would guess arrest rates are similar across the board, for the poor,because there is more police force is these areas.

I understand the net effect is blacks get the raw end of the stick. All I see are people complaining though. Whay is the solution? Do you stop policing high crime areas? I am guessing the law abiding citizens in these communities would disagree. Not trying to be argumentative, but I have not heard a good solution by anyone.

The solution is to stop enforcing unjust laws. AKA end the drug war.

Drug law enforcement has done more to destroy our constitution than anything else ever has. Drug law enforcement relies on a violation of our privacy because most drug laws are violated amongst people all willingly engaging in that behavior. There is no victim of a drug sale to report it to police so police have to stop and frisk, stop and search, stop and interrogate, stop and harass in order to get anywhere. It takes aggressive and unconstitutional law enforcement practices to fight the war on drugs. And the fight is happening in poor minority neighborhoods.
 
The solution is to stop enforcing unjust laws. AKA end the drug war.

Drug law enforcement has done more to destroy our constitution than anything else ever has. Drug law enforcement relies on a violation of our privacy because most drug laws are violated amongst people all willingly engaging in that behavior. There is no victim of a drug sale to report it to police so police have to stop and frisk, stop and search, stop and interrogate, stop and harass in order to get anywhere. It takes aggressive and unconstitutional law enforcement practices to fight the war on drugs. And the fight is happening in poor minority neighborhoods.

I agree with you there, but that is just a piece of the oppression pie. That alone will not stop blacks from being oppressed. And many of the programs intended to help poor blacks (welfare, affirmative action, etc.) actually have the opposite effect.

Edit: no matter what is changed, poorer urban areas will always have more crime
So I think the arrest stats stay the same.
 
I do think requiring all on duty cops to wear body cameras (that cannot be turned off). It couldnt hurt...
 
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