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Perhaps this is the defining moment for Hayward

Especially this far into his career. He's shown no signs of being that kind of player. I've seen Favors, Kanter, Alec and Trey all show that quality more than Hayward. You might as well start hoping for one of them to become the guy you all want Hayward to be, because he's not.
 
gregbroncs said:
Name the last soft player that magically turned into a hard nosed tough player. Either you are that kind of player or you are not. You don't just turn into a kind of player that rises under pressure. Hayward has shown that he is a good player that better not be your leader. He also better not be the guy you rely on to bring emotion to the court. He is not nor will ever be that kind of player.
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I can't help but wonder how you all are defining soft. I suspect that a significant portion of the definition has to do with outward shows of emotion, such as primal screams, jumping up and down the court while tugging outward on one's jersey, and so forth. Are we talking about actual characteristics of toughness (however it's defined) or stereotypical ones? Just curious.

Some years ago I read a book about the US Special Forces. The author was a journalist, and he noted that one thing he found unexpected was how the Special Forces soldiers were so often relatively soft spoken and unassuming, far from the outward macho posturing he expected to observe. I can't recall which book it was, sorry, but I do remember this, because it stood out to me when I was reading it. For what it's worth.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I can't help but wonder how you all are defining soft. I suspect that a significant portion of the definition has to do with outward shows of emotion, such as primal screams, jumping up and down the court while tugging outward on one's jersey, and so forth. Are we talking about actual characteristics of toughness (however it's defined) or stereotypical ones? Just curious.
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A little of both. If he's going to be the leader of the team he needs to show some outward signs of positive emotion. But a lot of it is the constant hanging of his head after a missed shot or a turnover on his part. He seems to show negative emotion and not positive emotion. That is not good for the overall emotion of the team. When the see the leader make a big play he takes it in stride, which would be okay. But they he makes a bad play and hangs his head and mopes back up the floor.
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Also not being physical on either end of the floor. He can be guarded by PG's in the post because he's afraid to use his size advantage to move them out of the way. His height and weight should be an advantage at SG but he doesn't use it.
 
gregbroncs said:
A little of both. If he's going to be the leader of the team he needs to show some outward signs of positive emotion. But a lot of it is the constant hanging of his head after a missed shot or a turnover on his part. He seems to show negative emotion and not positive emotion. That is not good for the overall emotion of the team. When the see the leader make a big play he takes it in stride, which would be okay. But they he makes a bad play and hangs his head and mopes back up the floor.
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Also not being physical on either end of the floor. He can be guarded by PG's in the post because he's afraid to use his size advantage to move them out of the way. His height and weight should be an advantage at SG but he doesn't use it.
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I disagree with the argument that toughness involves shows of emotion; in fact, I can easily think of a number of scenarios where shows of emotion are contrary to toughness and leadership. The rest of it makes more sense to me, if true (and it might well be).
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I can't help but wonder how you all are defining soft.
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To me Hayward is soft because he lets other players bully him and pick on him and because he pouts a lot when things don't go his way
 
fishonjazz said:
To me Hayward is soft because he lets other players bully him and pick on him and because he pouts a lot when things don't go his way
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Aside from Delonte West and the finger in the ear, do you have other examples?

BTW, LeBron didn't respond emotionally or respond in kind when Stevenson blew on him. Does that make him soft?

I'm just not sure I agree with the premise that 'toughness' requires emotional displays or retaliation for dumb slights.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I disagree with the argument that toughness involves shows of emotion; in fact, I can easily think of a number of scenarios where shows of emotion are contrary to toughness and leadership. The rest of it makes more sense to me, if true (and it might well be).
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If you are mentally tough you don't hang your head and mope when you make a bad play. Also never showing positive emotion means you are not helping the mindset of your team. Some shows of emotion can be detrimental to a team. Mental toughness to me would be knowing when and where to show the emotion and in the right way. A leader needs to do these things.
 
fishonjazz said:
To me Hayward is soft because he lets other players bully him and pick on him and because he pouts a lot when things don't go his way
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This I disagree with. He had the right emotional response to that. The problem I had is didn't he miss the FT afterwards? That is where he showed lack of toughness.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
Aside from Delonte West and the finger in the ear, do you have other examples?

BTW, LeBron didn't respond emotionally or respond in kind when Stevenson blew on him. Does that make him soft?

I'm just not sure I agree with the premise that 'toughness' requires emotional displays or retaliation for dumb slights.
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Barea punked him also.

Do you think pouting it's a sign of toughness?
 
gregbroncs said:
This I disagree with. He had the right emotional response to that. The problem I had is didn't he miss the FT afterwards? That is where he showed lack of toughness.
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I think that if someone sticks a finger your ear, you should always get pissed and should probably earn yourself a tech. Especially if it was a finger wet with spit
 
Softness, passiveness, Aggressiveness, Fire, "nasty-streak", etc. are all qualities you are either born with or not. You can't teach a soft/quiet/passive person to become aggressive and vice versa, you can't teach someone like Kobe Bryant to be passive and soft. It doesn't work that way. I know Jazz fans want to keep hoping that Hayward will suddenly and miraculously transform himself into an alpha male...but it's not going to happen. He is what he is, time to just accept it.
 
fishonjazz said:
I think that if someone sticks a finger your ear, you should always get pissed and should probably earn yourself a tech. Especially if it was a finger wet with spit
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It was a west willy, not a wet willy. It's okay West is in the SL while Haywards got a max contract. I guess that's why he doesn't have to act tough. I would at least have liked to see a demeaning gesture at least, like with what LeBron did with Lance.

I guess he's too white.
 
You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you. ~Walt Disney


Delonte+West+Wet+Willie+–+West+Gives+Gordon+Hayward+A+Wet+Willie+–+Video.JPG


Adversity is like a strong wind. It tears away from us all but the things that cannot be torn, so that we see ourselves as we really are. ~Arthur Golden, Memoirs of a Geisha

Rise up (this time) Mr. Hayward.
 
From reading this thread it appears that most of you have given up on Hayward.... The Jazz, however, have clearly not. At this point I choose to support their position.

Time will tell!
 
HighlandHomie said:
I'm grasping for straws here. Shocker00 and you both obviously make really strong points - but since he's barely 25 I'm still holding on a shred of hope that a 'basketball revelation' was still in line for him. We'll see... a pissed off Hayward would be just what this squad needs!
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25 is the old 27 though and therein lies the problem with him and his development or lack thereof to this point.
 
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