Yes Means Yes law passed

[LogGrad98]

I'm not sure. How do you get so drunk you can't even stand up by yourself (as happens in these cases), yet have the ability to force yourself on anyone? Anywhere you draw the line, there will be border cases.



The number of women who consent to sex, and then afterward decide they were raped, is very, very small.



Women don't typically call that rape, either.



Let's be clear:
1) The woman endangered her marriage by admitting she was in that room.
2) The woman subjected herself to some very negative responses by making the allegation.
3) We have only the guy's word of enthusiastic consent, a man raised in a culture where we are taught that good girls say no, and men are supposed to keep trying until they say yes.

What do you think the woman stood to gin by making her allegation, if she did not believe she had been raped?



If you believe the guy's story, he's not a rapist. An inability to remember consent is not a lack of consent.

I've had sex with my wife when she consented, yet was so drunk she could not remember it the next day. Not once has she said that she didn't want to have sex the previous night.

Hell give my wife an ambien and she will have no clue that it even happened at 3:00 in the morning.

Um, I mean that is what I think might happen. You know. If I knew what ambien was.

Right? Ambien?

 

[LogGrad98]

Did you read the part where she doesn't remember what happened and assumed it was rape? So, you're willing to call that rape?

You say the number of times a woman decides after sex that it was rape is very very small. You base that assertion on what? And how often is it acceptable to falsely incarcerate a man for rape?

In the words of Chief Wiggum, I would rather let a hundred guilty men go free than chase after them.

 

[moevillini]

Do the names Gary Dotson and Cathleen Crowell Webb ring any bells? As I recall , some ditzy morning talk show host requested they hug on national TV.

 

[One Brow]

Did you read the part where she doesn't remember what happened and assumed it was rape? So, you're willing to call that rape?

Do you find any of these three things likely: this was the first time she was drunk, this was the first time she had drunk sex, or she had a long history or making rape accusations after having drunk sex? If none of the above are true, then yes, that she woke up this particular time, and thought she was raped, means something was different from the last few times she had drunk sex. If any of the above are true, there is a lot more room for doubt.

Also, you still haven't offered any reason to think she was lying. I take it you accept the she really believed she was raped?

I've never been that drunk, so I'll ask those on the board with experience. How often did you wake up, and see vomit on, say, the bed, and think to yourselves that someone forced your mouth open, held down your tongue, and made you vomit? How often did you see a fist-sized hole in the wall, and assume that someone carried you to the wall, balled your hand, and pounded the wall with it? How often did you see a urine-soaked rug, and assume that someone pulled down your pants and pushed on your bladder until you peed?

You say the number of times a woman decides after sex that it was rape is very very small. You base that assertion on what?

What I have read of the scientific research.

And how often is it acceptable to falsely incarcerate a man for rape?

Never. That's why there is a presumption of innocence and a jury trial, to reduce the number of false incarcerations. However, I don't see you taking this position (avoid prosecuting what might be close cases) regarding robberies, auto theft, or murder. Why does it come out for rape?

 

[LogGrad98]

Never. That's why there is a presumption of innocence and a jury trial, to reduce the number of false incarcerations. However, I don't see you taking this position (avoid prosecuting what might be close cases) regarding robberies, auto theft, or murder. Why does it come out for rape?

Ambiguity. If I find your fingerprints all over a car, and all kinds of DNA evidence that you took a car that did not belong to you without the owner's permission, maybe even a video is available of you breaking into the car, it is generally accepted that it is cut and dried evidence you stole the car. If two people have drunken sex, and they find all kinds of evidence that they had sex (*****, hair, whatever, even a wild internet video) that does NOT make it fairly cut and dried a rape happened. The situation is far more ambiguous, generally.

 

[One Brow]

Ambiguity. If I find your fingerprints all over a car, and all kinds of DNA evidence that you took a car that did not belong to you without the owner's permission,

How do you prove that the owner did not give permission, outside of the owner's word? Why isn't owner-said-alleged-thief-said just as ambiguous?

 

[LogGrad98]

How do you prove that the owner did not give permission, outside of the owner's word? Why isn't owner-said-alleged-thief-said just as ambiguous?

Seriously?

I call cops and report my car stolen from outside a Maverik I stopped at on my way to work, where I left it running because I am an idiot. They canvass the black neighborhoods, harass a few people for ****s and giggles, then find my car parked in a crappy part of town at a Denny's (obviously) and arrest a white guy in a wife-beater. He claims to be my best friend and says I gave him the keys and asked him to bring it to the Denny's. I say ******** he is not and I did not. He has no way of proving we had ever met, no one had ever seen me with him before, no one he knows or I know can say they had ever seen us together. He does not know my address. I don't know his. Police investigate and he goes to jail.

I take a drunk girl home from the bar. We have drunken crazy sex. She claims I raped her. I say ******** she consented. Several people saw us talking at the bar, saw us dancing and doing drinking games, saw us leave together, see us making out like crazy at the bar, all attest we were drunk out of our minds. My neighbor sees her leave the next morning in a cab. The cab driver attests he picked her up after I called and told him she needed a ride home from my place. She admits being fuzzy on her memory of the night before. She says she remembers us going to my place, making out a lot and taking off our clothes and not much after that, but that she didn't think she would give consent after taking off all our clothes and touching each other all over. I say it was just a natural thing, we made out, undressed each other, and did it on the couch, her on top. Police investigate and...then what?

So which is inherently more ambiguous?

 

[One Brow]

So which is inherently more ambiguous?

Do I get to respond with equally loaded scenarios?

For example, do if I come back with a pair where the guy in your wife-beater is your best friend, everyone has seen you together, and he's even been seen backing your car out of the driveway in the first scenario; while in the second, the woman was having drinking games with her friends, and on the way out the door the guy just offered to walk her home out of the blue and he was seen leaving her apartment, then which is more ambiguous?

How woulde you feel if the police told you since you knew the the guy, he couldn't have stolen your car?

 

[LogGrad98]

Do I get to respond with equally loaded scenarios?

For example, do if I come back with a pair where the guy in your wife-beater is your best friend, everyone has seen you together, and he's even been seen backing your car out of the driveway in the first scenario; while in the second, the woman was having drinking games with her friends, and on the way out the door the guy just offered to walk her home out of the blue and he was seen leaving her apartment, then which is more ambiguous?

How woulde you feel if the police told you since you knew the the guy, he couldn't have stolen your car?

So you are saying that the scenarios I have created are no where near "typical" in any way shape or form? You are saying that it is FAR more likely that my car is stolen by someone who could have a fully legitimate claim on being my best friend? I was trying to be very generic in the scenario. You can build any scenario you want, even that a super-villain had your best friend replaced and genetically altered to trick everyone and then had him steal your car. Which is most likely? Try being just a tad intellectually honest here.

 

[One Brow]

So you are saying that the scenarios I have created are no where near "typical" in any way shape or form? You are saying that it is FAR more likely that my car is stolen by someone who could have a fully legitimate claim on being my best friend? I was trying to be very generic in the scenario. You can build any scenario you want, even that a super-villain had your best friend replaced and genetically altered to trick everyone and then had him steal your car. Which is most likely? Try being just a tad intellectually honest here.

If we are being intellectually honest, then the woman who all over the guy in the bar and is enthusiastically removing her clothes won't be crying rape in the morning. I acknowledge your car scenario is more likely than mine; my rape scenario is much more likely than yours.

 

[PearlWatson]

Your quotes didn't offer any evidence of the bogus part. For example, "the clear possibility that those who had been victimized were more apt to have completed the questionnaire" is no greater than the clear possibility that those who had been victimized were" less "apt to have completed the questionnaire".
You misrepresented Summers misrepresentation of the study.
Your video is using a definition of rape culture that I have never seen a feminist use.

Why I say the finding are bogus:
Only 2 universities surveyed
Large nonresponse rate
Too broad definition of "sexual assault" (what the hell is "attempted forced kissing?" Is that different than attempted kiss that was rejected?)
Included "not sure" as yes

I don't understand your Sommers complaint.

Please provide both definitions of "rape culture" so I can see how they conflict.

 

[LogGrad98]

If we are being intellectually honest, then the woman who all over the guy in the bar and is enthusiastically removing her clothes won't be crying rape in the morning. I acknowledge your car scenario is more likely than mine; my rape scenario is much more likely than yours.

GF gave us an actual example of a rape scenario that far more closely resembled my hypothetical. Do you have any stats that say that some random guy walking up out of nowhere outside of a bar is a more likely rapist than someone she had already known to some degree? I know my daughter in her intro to college class at UNR was taught that she is far more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger. Not sure where they got that from, but they were talking about rape statistics at the university and cited that a date rape scenario is way more likely and talked about being sure of what they are ingesting and not drinking or taking things they don't know anything about, stuff like that.


edit: I googled it real quick and came up with this:

For many, the word “rape” conjures up images of a stranger behind a bush in a dark place with no one else around. In school we are taught to recognize stranger danger and how to say no to a mysterious figure. However, the reality of rape is very different and far more disturbing. Rape is most likely to occur, not with a stranger, but with someone you know and trust. According to the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 55% of sexually assaulted women know their attacker. Acquaintance rape is a forced sexual assault committed by an individual whom you know: someone you just met, dated a few times, are in a committed relationship with, or are related to. The force involved can be physical, or implied with threats. Acquaintance rape is a violation of body and trust, but above all it is an act of violence – and it is wrong.

https://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=326&Itemid=16

I can't imagine it is that much different in American vs Canada.

 

[One Brow]

Why I say the finding are bogus:
Only 2 universities surveyed
Large nonresponse rate
Too broad definition of "sexual assault" (what the hell is "attempted forced kissing?" Is that different than attempted kiss that was rejected?)
Included "not sure" as yes

I don't understand your Sommers complaint.

Please provide both definitions of "rape culture" so I can see how they conflict.

In the initial survey there were 2 universities, the findings have since been confirmed at other universities.

A large non-response rate means the number could be greater or smaller than 20%, possibly. How can you know which one?

Yes, forcing a kiss id different from asking for a kiss. Force means that after the intial rejection, the kisser would have physically handled the kissee to attempt to force them into a kiss.

Depending on the context, some someimtes "not sure" is a valid yes. Women internalize the victim-blaming, and blame themselves even though others can see it was not their fault.

In the video, they falsely define "rape culture" as meaning the approval of rape. In the definitions I have seen, rape culture consists of downplaying/discounting accusations of rape, victim blaming/shaming, saying it is in the nature of men, etc.

 

[One Brow]

GF gave us an actual example of a rape scenario that far more closely resembled my hypothetical. Do you have any stats that say that some random guy walking up out of nowhere outside of a bar is a more likely rapist than someone she had already known to some degree? I know my daughter in her intro to college class at UNR was taught that she is far more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger. Not sure where they got that from, but they were talking about rape statistics at the university and cited that a date rape scenario is way more likely and talked about being sure of what they are ingesting and not drinking or taking things they don't know anything about, stuff like that.


edit: I googled it real quick and came up with this:



https://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=326&Itemid=16

I can't imagine it is that much different in American vs Canada.

The gentleman who offers to walk the lady home introduces himself ahead of time, naturally.

Embellishments you added to Gameface's scenario:
Danincg together and making out at the bar.
She remembers taking off all hew clothes and engaging in fun play with naked bodies.

You don't think those two items skewed your narrative just a bit? As I said, no matter where you draw the line, you find gray areas.

When I asked about other things that might happen after drinking, no one came forward to say that they assumed some else had forced them into the action. Have you ever woken up after drinking, and thought someone had forced you into something without your consent?

Lot's of women wake up with regrets after drunk coitus, prtty much every day. Very few of them say they were raped. Often, the same woman who says rape in one instance will have had other instances where she does not believe she was raped. Why is it so hard to accept that the reason these women think differently is because they were treated differently?

 

[fishonjazz]

There are probably scenarios when a woman consents to sex and then the man upsets her in some way, so she decides to cry rape in an effort to **** the man over

 

[babe]

There are probably scenarios when a woman consents to sex and then the man upsets her in some way, so she decides to cry rape in an effort to **** the man over

Fundamentally, the OB/Log discussion above is exhibit A in my argument that our country has gone to Hell. Well, Exhibit B might be my desperation coming to a sports site to try to discuss politics and religion.

As a culture, what do we really care about or consider important?

keeping terrorists bent on blowing up our citys' infrastructure or most symbolic architecture off our soil?

protecting the economic interests of American workers?

keeping our boys out of useless foreign conflicts?

resisting the corrupt influence of fascists hell-bent on turning our government programs into their personal cash cows??/

if we don't care about things that do matter, who is going to?

Chinese business interests trying vainly to deploy our worthless printed money by buying worthless American resources and real estate?

 

[babe]

Yes doesn't even mean Yes

I don't care if the woman marries a man legally and in front of her church, family and friends.

There is in reality no meaning attached to marriage beyond whatever the woman feels or wants from minute to minute. . . . . at least not in our culture, anymore.

For words to have any meaning, there need to be some beliefs about personal responsibility, personal morality, and in some higher power that represents transcendent truth somehow. . . . .

secular humanism, cutting off all attribution to universal principles that will stand as true on their own inherent terms as truth, reduces us to squabbling morons socially, and to "human resources" under the absolute tyranny of fascist elites politically.

 

[Gameface]

I don't care if the woman marries a man legally and in front of her church, family and friends.

There is in reality no meaning attached to marriage beyond whatever the woman feels or wants from minute to minute. . . . . at least not in our culture, anymore.

For words to have any meaning, there need to be some beliefs about personal responsibility, personal morality, and in some higher power that represents transcendent truth somehow. . . . .

secular humanism, cutting off all attribution to universal principles that will stand as true on their own inherent terms as truth, reduces us to squabbling morons socially, and to "human resources" under the absolute tyranny of fascist elites politically.

The rules have and always will be made by mere humans. The times when the rules were based on an appeal to the unquestionable authority of a mystical creator the greatest horrors and slowest advances have been made. When "secularism" begins to take hold humanity is elevated and progress that benefits each and every one of us gains new legs.

I shudder at the horror of a world where men in funny hats residing in pointy buildings tell us what their mystical slave master demands of us.

 

[LogGrad98]

He demands of us to love our neighbor and do good to others. The horror! !!

 

[silesian]

Framing of this discussion

Whether or not the real number is 20% ( if the number is 10% or 5% or 2% do you feel that it is not a problem? )

And, a lot of arguing about ambiguous "but what if...." scenarios

And, a lot of framing the men as the falsely accused victims (which is the case in any crime).


I wonder why there is not a lot a lot of discussion about this as a real problem with real victims and what to do about it.