Graphic video released of police killing another black man in cold blood

[jimmy eat jazz]

Like I mentioned, you're overplaying your hand. If you're not sure what that means, look it up. A dictionary for idioms would be a good starting point.

Wow, the reasonableness of people on this thread is restoring my faith in humanity.

That said, anyone care to guess what the odds are this poor guy in Walmart would have been gunned down if he were white? I wouldn't say zero odds, but I'd guess significantly lower odds.

Anyone else care to venture a guess as to whether these cops will be held responsible in a way reasonably proportional to their 'mistake?' Let's say I'm not confident.

I heard a recent podcast where they cited a study looking at how people react consciously or subconsciously to race. As best I can remember, people where shown pictures of potentially threatening situations and asked to rate the level of threat using some response scale. In the pictures, similar threats were displayed, but the race of the people in the pictures were changed, some white, some black. Researchers found that study subjects consistently rated the pictures with the black person as more threatening than pictures with the white person, and the difference was statistically significant.

Interestingly, this finding cut across race, meaning that black people perceived higher threat levels at more or less that same rate as white people when the person in the picture was black.

I think anyone who argues that race isn't a factor in how we perceive and react to people and events is being very, very naive or willfully ignorant. To take this a step further, anyone who argues that this isn't true for law enforcement officers as well is equally as naive or willfully ignorant.

How the hell do we begin to systematically address this issue?

 

[Stoked]

Wow, the reasonableness of people on this thread is restoring my faith in humanity.

That said, anyone care to guess what the odds are this poor guy in Walmart would have been gunned down if he were white? I wouldn't say zero odds, but I'd guess significantly lower odds.

Anyone else care to venture a guess as to whether these cops will be held responsible in a way reasonably proportional to their 'mistake?' Let's say I'm not confident.

I heard a recent podcast where they cited a study looking at how people react consciously or subconsciously to race. As best I can remember, people where shown pictures of potentially threatening situations and asked to rate the level of threat using some response scale. In the pictures, similar threats were displayed, but the race of the people in the pictures were changed, some white, some black. Researchers found that study subjects consistently rated the pictures with the black person as more threatening than pictures with the white person, and the difference was statistically significant.

Interestingly, this finding cut across race, meaning that black people perceived higher threat levels at more or less that same rate as white people when the person in the picture was black.

I think anyone who argues that race isn't a factor in how we perceive and react to people and events is being very, very naive or willfully ignorant. To take this a step further, anyone who argues that this isn't true for law enforcement officers as well is equally as naive or willfully ignorant.

How the hell do we begin to systematically address this issue?

No one is arguing that. The statement that started this, for me anyways, was that only blacks experience this. That is blatantly false. One could argue, and I'd agree, that blacks face it more than whites but that's not what was said. Race can play a factor. But when race is used as the end all be all in why things happen it is more indicative of that own persons bias then anything else. Yes it plays a part but it is only a part and not the whole.

Never mind the exlusion of other minorities in this.

We address it through education. Yes that is a broad term but all the things I can think of to tackle this issue fall under that umbrella. It won't be solved over night, have to think long term.

 

[Hotdog]

Wow, the reasonableness of people on this thread is restoring my faith in humanity.

That said, anyone care to guess what the odds are this poor guy in Walmart would have been gunned down if he were white? I wouldn't say zero odds, but I'd guess significantly lower odds.

Anyone else care to venture a guess as to whether these cops will be held responsible in a way reasonably proportional to their 'mistake?' Let's say I'm not confident.

I heard a recent podcast where they cited a study looking at how people react consciously or subconsciously to race. As best I can remember, people where shown pictures of potentially threatening situations and asked to rate the level of threat using some response scale. In the pictures, similar threats were displayed, but the race of the people in the pictures were changed, some white, some black. Researchers found that study subjects consistently rated the pictures with the black person as more threatening than pictures with the white person, and the difference was statistically significant.

Interestingly, this finding cut across race, meaning that black people perceived higher threat levels at more or less that same rate as white people when the person in the picture was black.

I think anyone who argues that race isn't a factor in how we perceive and react to people and events is being very, very naive or willfully ignorant. To take this a step further, anyone who argues that this isn't true for law enforcement officers as well is equally as naive or willfully ignorant.

How the hell do we begin to systematically address this issue?

There is still a very good chance that if the guy was white then the same thing happens.

That's of course if the 911 caller still would have made the call. I think that more emphasis of racism should be put on the 911 caller. Not the cops. All the cops knew was, there was a person carry a gun around Walmart pointing it at people.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of the cop. You get a call about someone in a Walmart carrying a gun around and pointing it at people. Whether or not that was entirely true doesn't matter. That was the information they had at the time.

After watching the video I felt like the 911 caller was mostly to blame. He painted an over exaggerated picture of the situation to the authorities. It didn't look like to me that he was pointing it at people or acting suspicious. Had I saw that going on in a store myself, it might have gave me pause at first but I would have concluded it was a toy because it was inside Walmart and all the guy was doing was talking on the phone. I would have just ignored it. I've picked up toy guns in the store before. I'm sure mostly everyone has. But for some stupid reason some guy reports this as a crazy situation going on, and didn't stop to think it could be a toy.

That's my problem with this story. Everyone wants to blame the cops and say what they did was racist. I say if you want to blame somebody, blame the stupid 911 caller. But also, Crawford didn't help himself out either by acting the way he did when he was confronted by the cops.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

There is still a very good chance that if the guy was white then the same thing happens.

That's of course if the 911 caller still would have made the call. I think that more emphasis of racism should be put on the 911 caller. Not the cops. All the cops knew was, there was a person carry a gun around Walmart pointing it at people.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of the cop. You get a call about someone in a Walmart carrying a gun around and pointing it at people. Whether or not that was entirely true doesn't matter. That was the information they had at the time.

After watching the video I felt like the 911 caller was mostly to blame. He painted an over exaggerated picture of the situation to the authorities. It didn't look like to me that he was pointing it at people or acting suspicious. Had I saw that going on in a store myself, it might have gave me pause at first but I would have concluded it was a toy because it was inside Walmart and all the guy was doing was talking on the phone. I would have just ignored it. I've picked up toy guns in the store before. I'm sure mostly everyone has. But for some stupid reason some guy reports this as a crazy situation going on, and didn't stop to think it could be a toy.

That's my problem with this story. Everyone wants to blame the cops and say what they did was racist. I say if you want to blame somebody, blame the stupid 911 caller. But also, Crawford didn't help himself out either by acting the way he did when he was confronted by the cops.

I'm not saying the police were racist, not at all. That's the point, I think, of the study I summarize. Race affects how we think and react to things. Perceiving greater threat exists with a black perp than with a white perp does not appear to be racism, but rather pretty common among whites and blacks.

I still maintain that were this guy white, there's a much greater chance he'd be alive today.

Edited to add:

At the very least, these policemen should be fired. This was a huge, unforgivable mistake. No one would retain a Comptroller who messed up the books to the tune of several million dollars (or more depending on the size of the firm), or the account executive who through incompetence loses the company's major account, so why retain cops who make just about the worst mistake they could possibly make on the job? They have demonstrated their incompetence and need to go.

Also, for all those who favor open carry laws, and who wish to parade around brandishing their AR 15s in public, how many more times do they think this type of thing will happen--that is, be confused for someone with hostile intent? That's all we need, a society in which large segments of the population are openly packing heat. How the hell are we then to assess accurately the treat level when we see someone brandishing a gun?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

There is still a very good chance that if the guy was white then the same thing happens.

That's of course if the 911 caller still would have made the call. I think that more emphasis of racism should be put on the 911 caller. Not the cops. All the cops knew was, there was a person carry a gun around Walmart pointing it at people.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of the cop. You get a call about someone in a Walmart carrying a gun around and pointing it at people. Whether or not that was entirely true doesn't matter. That was the information they had at the time.

After watching the video I felt like the 911 caller was mostly to blame. He painted an over exaggerated picture of the situation to the authorities. It didn't look like to me that he was pointing it at people or acting suspicious. Had I saw that going on in a store myself, it might have gave me pause at first but I would have concluded it was a toy because it was inside Walmart and all the guy was doing was talking on the phone. I would have just ignored it. I've picked up toy guns in the store before. I'm sure mostly everyone has. But for some stupid reason some guy reports this as a crazy situation going on, and didn't stop to think it could be a toy.

That's my problem with this story. Everyone wants to blame the cops and say what they did was racist. I say if you want to blame somebody, blame the stupid 911 caller. But also, Crawford didn't help himself out either by acting the way he did when he was confronted by the cops.

I haven't heard the 911 call (where did you find audio) but no matter what the caller said, the cops handled this situation incorrectly. If they believed that this man was a threat the first thing they should have done is get others out of the area. A good way to do that might have been to use the store PA and tell everyone there were reports of a gunman and to leave the store immediately. They should have ordered the gunman to put down his weapon. All of this could have been monitored on the security cameras. The kid with the toy might have realized that they were talking about him, he probably would have been scared ****less and obeyed the orders.

The officer who did the shooting was, in my opinion, every bit as much in the wrong as the South Carolina Highway Patrolman in the other video that was posted. It is his job to handle these sorts of situations in a reasonable manner and he did exactly the opposite. Based on my understanding of this situation I think he should face major consequences. As with the other case, I would like to hear his explanation.

 

[Hotdog]

I'm not saying the police were racist, not at all. That's the point, I think, of the study I summarize. Race affects how we think and react to things. Perceiving greater threat exists with a black perp than with a white perp does not appear to be racism, but rather pretty common among whites and blacks.

I still maintain that were this guy white, there's a much greater chance he'd be alive today.

It's possible, but it doesn't change the fact that other factors went into this situation. Cops receive over exaggerated tip, guy was holding a real looking gun and validated part of the tip received, guy made dumb move towards his fake gun.

Those ingredients can get anyone killed. I can guarantee you that. Maybe if he was white, the 911 caller wouldn't have called. Or the cops would exercised more restraint on not even shot the first time, then the crazy move towards the gun wouldn't have happened. Maybe.

What this doesn't say however, is that it was just some racist white cops out on a killing spree. They didn't consciously decide that they were just going to shoot him because he is black. There were many other factors involved.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

What this doesn't say however, is that it was just some racist white cops out on a killing spree. They didn't consciously decide that they were just going to shoot him because he is black. There were many other factors involved.

Again, I'm not saying this, so why do you keep coming back to this point?

 

[Hotdog]

I haven't heard the 911 call (where did you find audio) but no matter what the caller said, the cops handled this situation incorrectly. If they believed that this man was a threat the first thing they should have done is get others out of the area. A good way to do that might have been to use the store PA and tell everyone there were reports of a gunman and to leave the store immediately. They should have ordered the gunman to put down his weapon. All of this could have been monitored on the security cameras. The kid with the toy might have realized that they were talking about him, he probably would have been scared ****less and obeyed the orders.

The officer who did the shooting was, in my opinion, every bit as much in the wrong as the South Carolina Highway Patrolman in the other video that was posted. It is his job to handle these sorts of situations in a reasonable manner and he did exactly the opposite. Based on my understanding of this situation I think he should face major consequences. As with the other case, I would like to hear his explanation.

The cops didn't handle the situation perfectly. They too could have come to the conclusion that it may be a toy since he was in a Walmart. But again, this wasn't a cop just strolling a long shopping and then ran across this guy with a gun. They received a 911 call saying there is a man in a store with a gun pointing it at people.

This case is entirely different than the SC case.

To your point, why don't they just get on the PA and announce there is a guy in the store with gun, just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'm sure most professionals would have pretty good reasons why not to do that in that situation. For one, it's gonna start a panic. Then you also warn the guy you are coming. What if the threat were real? Doing as you say and announcing a guys got a gun over the PA could cause all sorts of problems.

YouTube has more audio and video on the case.

 

[fishonjazz]

Tell us the proper way to carry this around the store while you are looking for other things to buy, please.

Grocery stores usually have things with baskets with wheels on them that you use to carry items that you intend to purchase.

So you find out.

How?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Grocery stores usually have things with baskets with wheels on them that you use to carry items that you intend to purchase.



How?

Sorry, I seem to have missed all the signs indicating that failure to use the carts is a crime and punishable by death.

 

[Hotdog]

Again, I'm not saying this, so why do you keep coming back to this point?

Because you are trying to imply that if the guy were white then the situation would have happened a lot different. Maybe, but probably not.


I challenge any white man on the planet to walk into a public place and wave a real looking toy gun around until the cops are called and see just how tense the situation gets. The cops aren't going to treat you any different no matter what color you are in a situation like that. There is a good chance you get shot too. Especially if you are defiant and make stupid moves.

Go on YouTube and you can also find cops harassing white people with guns walking around out in the open just because they want to prove a point about guns rights. They too get shook down pretty hard.


Cops shouldn't be expected to be mind readers. They don't know what your intentions are, and everybody should be mindful of that when you encounter a cop.

I like the law. I don't want to live in a lawless country. I know cops have a tough job. Every time I've encountered police I've done exactly as they say and then go on about my day just fine without getting shot. I've had guns drawn on me in two separate occasions when I was younger. Both times were cases of mistakes by the cops. I got out of those situations just fine. Because I got the sense that one false move and I'm dead. It's pretty simple survival instincts really.

I'm not carrying around toy or real guns either so I guess that helps.

 

[Hotdog]

Sorry, I seem to have missed all the signs indicating that failure to use the carts is a crime and punishable by death.

lol

It's a good point, but it would cross the mind of a smart person that carry a real looking gun around for a long period in a store, talking on your phone and not shopping for anything else could look bad. Especially in this age of public shootings.


Look, just because giving some random kid some candy and an offer for a ride in your van is harmless if that's all you are doing, doesn't mean it's a good idea because of how it looks.

Does that help put it in perspective?

 

[Hotdog]

I win this thread. I don't win many, but I nailed this one.

/thread

game over!

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Because you are trying to imply that if the guy were white then the situation would have happened a lot different. Maybe, but probably not.


I challenge any white man on the planet to walk into a public place and wave a real looking toy gun around until the cops are called and see just how tense the situation gets. The cops aren't going to treat you any different no matter what color you are in a situation like that. There is a good chance you get shot too. Especially if you are defiant and make stupid moves.

Go on YouTube and you can also find cops harassing white people with guns walking around out in the open just because they want to prove a point about guns rights. They too get shook down pretty hard.


Cops shouldn't be expected to be mind readers. They don't know what your intentions are, and everybody should be mindful of that when you encounter a cop.

I like the law. I don't want to live in a lawless country. I know cops have a tough job. Every time I've encountered police I've done exactly as they say and then go on about my day just fine without getting shot. I've had guns drawn on me in two separate occasions when I was younger. Both times were cases of mistakes by the cops. I got out of those situations just fine. Because I got the sense that one false move and I'm dead. It's pretty simple survival instincts really.

I'm not carrying around toy or real guns either so I guess that helps.

Geez, you've really missed the point, which is that many of us (black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) carry around in our minds beliefs about certain groups that are informed by various sources, such as popular culture, media, social networks, biases, bigotry, etc. that affect how we interpret and react to events. The study I cited suggests that many of us perceive, for whatever reasons, blacks to be more threatening than whites, which will unavoidably influence our thinking and behavior in certain situations. Given that the evidence suggests that people by and large perceive (for whatever reason) blacks to be more threatening, it follows logically than in situations where a threat might be perceived, we're more likely to perceive the threat if it involves a black person rather than a white person, thus increasing (at the margin) the likelihood that we'll react accordingly, such as, say, calling into 911 saying some guy is walking around threatening people with a gun or policemen perceiving a black guy with a gun is a greater threat than a white guy with a gun.

It's much, much more complex than simply racism.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

I win this thread. I don't win many, but I nailed this one.

/thread

game over!

The U.S. Checkers World Champ ladies and gentleman!

 

[Stoked]

Grocery stores usually have things with baskets with wheels on them that you use to carry items that you intend to purchase.



How?

Not to mention it was removed from its packing by a previous shopper. Normally they are in a box or tied to carboard somehow and possibly wrapped.

 

[slc]

Aren't there Walmarts that do sell real guns?

 

[fishonjazz]

Sorry, I seem to have missed all the signs indicating that failure to use the carts is a crime and punishable by death.

You must have missed one brow post asking what else he could have done with his gun too.

I never said he deserved to get killed you silly goose.

One brow asked what is the proper way to carry the items that you plan to purchase around. I simply supplied him with an answer

 

[fishonjazz]

Aren't there Walmarts that do sell real guns?

Yes. All of them I have ever been in

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

lol

It's a good point, but it would cross the mind of a smart person that carry a real looking gun around for a long period in a store, talking on your phone and not shopping for anything else could look bad. Especially in this age of public shootings.


Look, just because giving some random kid some candy and an offer for a ride in your van is harmless if that's all you are doing, doesn't mean it's a good idea because of how it looks.

Does that help put it in perspective?

Holy totally inappropriate analogy Batman!

I can't believe you just compared walking around a store with a BB gun you intend to purchase with inviting children into your van for candy. I mean, really??