Stupid point. The only years that we were good enough to be in the Finals were 97 and 98. Just because Stock and Malone played together for 18 years doesnt mean that they were in peak form and played at a superstar level for 18 years. They were at their peak for about 7-8 years max(91-98) and in that time they had enough help to get to the finals only in 97 and 98 where they lost to the best ever. And remember, apart from Malone who averaged 25+ Jazz did not have a SINGLE player averaging 15ppg or more during the 97/98 finals. It is amazing enough that we made it to the Finals twice with those teams. A lot of the supporting role players(Russel, Shandon, Eisley) on those teams fizzled out when they went to other teams. They were borderline scrubs overachieving because of the Jazz system
Why are the Spurs on pace to win 72 games, yet the Jazz are floundering again?
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Stupid point. The only years that we were good enough to be in the Finals were 97 and 98. Just because Stock and Malone played together for 18 years doesnt mean that they were in peak form and played at a superstar level for 18 years. They were at their peak for about 7-8 years max(91-98) and in that time they had enough help to get to the finals only in 97 and 98 where they lost to the best ever. And remember, apart from Malone who averaged 25+ Jazz did not have a SINGLE player averaging 15ppg or more during the 97/98 finals. It is amazing enough that we made it to the Finals twice with those teams. A lot of the supporting role players(Russel, Shandon, Eisley) on those teams fizzled out when they went to other teams. They were borderline scrubs overachieving because of the Jazz system
1988: Frank Layden had Stock-Malone challenging the showtime Magic Johnson-Jabbar Lakers, losing 4-3 in the semifinals. Sloan takes over in 89 and the Jazz take a humiliating first round loss to the Warriors, 0-3. Sloan set them back 10 years. Sloan continues to be a very very good regular season coach who shows not a clue as to how to set his team up to win a ring. Facts if facts.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
vj_74 is right and your "16 years" statement is inaccurate. Sloan's first full season as head coach was 1989-90. Counting that year as his first (and you should since being asked to take over a team 17 games into a season is pretty difficult), Sloan's first 3 full seasons as HC, the Jazz advanced to the 1st round, the 2nd round, and then to the conference finals. They made the NBA Finals in Sloan's 8th and 9th full seasons as HC, and although he would have Stockton and Malone for 5 seasons after the Finals runs (including the misfortune of the lockout season in which the Jazz likely would've won it all if not for the compressed schedule) - they were in the twilight of their career during that stretch.
And I agree that I would do anything it takes to allow Hornacek to take over for Jerry. He'd definitely be my #1 choice, I just wish we could get him on as a fulltime assistant so he can get a little more bench experience.
mellow
Well-Known Member
Sloan criticisms aside. I attribute the spurs success to 1- Thier max player plays like a max player. 2- The team is willing to pay a SG more than a vetran minimum contract. 3- They have more draft picks on thier team contributing--mostly because of thier superior draft postion over the jazz:
George Hill 26th
Tony Parker 28th
DeJuan Blair 37th
Gary Neal Undrafted
George Hill 26th
Tony Parker 28th
DeJuan Blair 37th
Gary Neal Undrafted
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
That's not entirely true. Jazz had legit chances the two years Jordan was out but choked in the Western Conference playoffs, including a first round exit to Houston (the lower seed) one of the years Houston won it. Can't blame Jordan for those ones.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Those were Jazz teams posted some terrific records but the Rockets were just the better team (they did win championships both years). Houston was vastly superior in 93-94 - better role players and the Jazz had no answer for league MVP Hakeem.
In 94-95 Utah was better but after sleepwalking through the beginning of the regular season Houston turned it up - partly due to the Drexler trade. And if David Benoit doesn't miss 3 WIDE-OPEN 3's in the 4th qtr of Game 5, the Jazz probably win that series. Hard to blame Sloan for that, and hard to blame Sloan for Malone missing 2 FT's in the final minute of Game 7 of the 1996 WCF in Seattle.
The two years the Jazz went to the Finals they went definitely the superior team - both times going beating Houston.
I don't think you meant superior draft position, because the Jazz almost always pick before them. And with exception to Deron and AK (still too early to say either way for Hayward) the Spurs out-draft THE **** out of the Jazz, at least in the first round. And even though the Jazz have found some very good finds in the 2nd round, the Spurs getting Ginobili in the 2nd round eclipses all of our choices by itself.
And let's not forget that while Splitter isn't destroying the league (at least not yet), he does contribute above the league-average when he does get time and we passed on him (or rather, passed on waiting 3 years) for Morris Almond.
I think Hakeem is one of the most under-appreciated players of all time. He's the only player I know of in my limited historical reference (1980 and later) that really won it all without another star. Sure, he had a bunch of nice (but nothing that great) role-players, but in '94, it was him and a bunch of role-players. The next year, he made Shaq CRY. He's blocked more shots than anyone in NBA history. He's accomplished a quadruple double and a 5x5.
Anyway.
Anyway.
chemdude1232
Active Member
I wouldn't call Clyde Drexler a role player on those Rockets teams.
mellow
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I should have used the sarcasm marks around the superior draft position comment. It was meant as a criticism and accusation against the Jazz. They draft badly, then when they finally find someone that can play alittle-the jazz let him go and get nothing or next to nothing in return.... for example: Mo Williams, Ronnie Brewer, Mathews, Maynor, Humphries.
LifeOnaPlate
Well-Known Member
Humphries sucks. Always did.
He didn't play on the '94 championship team.
While that may be true, he certainly didn't and doesn't suck as bad as the juggernaut of suckiness that was Araujo.
Fixed.
LogGrad98
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Nah they won because they had Big-Shot Rob. Wasn't it a league requirement that Robert Horry be on every championship team until he retired?
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
Not sure you can say that Houston was clearly better in both cases. In 1995, Jazz had better record and were higher seed but lost in first round to Houston. Had David Benoit made his 3 point shot, things might have turned out quite differently. Jazz lost in Conference Finals in 94 and in 92 to Portland (who I believe lost to Bulls).
Jazz and Sloan have had chances, probably best was '95, but failed to capitalize. It wasn't just Jordan. So to say that Jordan the reason for never winning it appears to me to be clearly false.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
No. If you understand the NBA - you know teams make championship pushes. Unless you have a dynasty like the Bulls in the 90's or the Lakers/Celtics in the 80's you're talking about a 3-4 year window of legitimately competing for a championship. You can't just look back at the entire Stock/Malone era and say each year they didn't win it all was a massive failure to capitalize. The Jazz's peak championship window was 96-99, and they got hit by MJ twice and the lockout the 3rd time.