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It's Official: Mormon Founder Joseph Smith had up to 40 wives

colton said:
This isn't a revelation. It's been well known (to me, at least, and many others) since at least 1997, with the publication of In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton. https://www.amazon.com/In-Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Joseph/dp/156085085X. And this list on Wikipedia has existed at least since 2008 (and probably for a longer time in another article before it was given its own topic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

What is new, I suppose, is that the church is officially acknowledging it as opposed to ignoring it.

I do note, however, that being sealed to someone wasn't necessarily the same as having marital relations (i.e. sex) with them. To me it seems the number of women to whom he was actually married to (i.e. through plural marriage) and having marital relations with is far smaller than the list of "wives" on the Wikipedia article, which more properly indicates sealings. Considering the fact that they had no birth control back then, if he had marital relations with that many women, it would seem likely that at least SOME of them would have had children. And as you can see from the Wikipedia article, DNA testing has not yet confirmed any children of Joseph Smith with anyone other than Emma. So, my own beliefs are that he only entered into plural marriage with some smaller number, perhaps around 10. Not that that really matters--if you believe he was a prophet, than you likely also believe he received the authority and command to enter into polygamous relationships and the exact number probably doesn't impact your faith much. And if you don't believe he was a prophet, well then the exact number probably isn't important to you either.
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Would it be within your beliefs to think that any of this was not divine inspiration and Joseph Smith made a mistake with some or all of it?


I think the LDS church should say that the marriage to the 14 year old is not okay and separate that out from divine inspiration. I dont think the LDS church should claim or think that everything Joseph Smith did was the right thing and God wanted it done. He is human and therefore not perfect. I know the LDS church believes that but never seems to be an answer for why something was done by a prophet.

I do think talking openly about LDS history and all of its beliefs more upfront and honest is a good PR move and good for people in or out of the LDS church. No one should find out things they dont like or dont understand properly about their religion because it is swept under the rug.
 
Broncster said:
Would it be within your beliefs to think that any of this was not divine inspiration and Joseph Smith made a mistake with some or all of it?


I think the LDS church should say that the marriage to the 14 year old is not okay and separate that out from divine inspiration. I dont think the LDS church should claim or think that everything Joseph Smith did was the right thing and God wanted it done. He is human and therefore not perfect. I know the LDS church believes that but never seems to be an answer for why something was done by a prophet.

I do think talking openly about LDS history and all of its beliefs more upfront and honest is a good PR move and good for people in or out of the LDS church. No one should find out things they dont like or dont understand properly about their religion because it is swept under the rug.
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Marriage to 14 year olds was perfectly okay back then. Even now you can get married at 16. I don't understand why you're so focused on that.
 
Siro said:
Marriage to 14 year olds was perfectly okay back then. Even now you can get married at 16. I don't understand why you're so focused on that.
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It wasnt common back then, the average age of marriage was still 21 and it was generally not okay. Most states even then had an age of 16 as the age to consent to marriage. Although some places were younger back then. Regardless of the law, I believe that is not an age of consent to be married or for sex. If I believed god was giving divine inspiration I believe he would know that was not okay. But if you think differently and you think your god thinks differently that is your belief. I think it is disturbing and disgusting.

Additionally I was simply providing an example. Pick another example of something in your beliefs history that seems like the leader made a bad choice. I was genuinely curious about what Coltons beliefs would be on this would be, since I respect his opinions and beliefs and he states them well.

I also dont think it is okay for a leader of a religion to use a religious reason to take someone wife as their own. If that is okay to you I would be curious why but I am not opposed to it if you believe in that.

I assume if some of these things were happening today people would be more disturbed. I think moral values should have been the same within a religion then as they are now. I will say that moral values are much higher now then they were back then as a society and within Mormonism though. My understanding which could be wrong, is that the things happening then with polygamy and what Joseph Smith did not stop because god decided they were bad or wrong but because divine inspiration decided that society did not except and it was against the law. Polygamy seemingly still exists within Mormonism in the after life and therefore would exist in this life if laws permitted it and was needed for some reason.
 
Broncster said:
A lot of this news to me makes being a Mormon more black and white for people I think it might strengthen active Mormons into their religion, and cause people who are okay with Mormons but not apart of it or less active and nonchalant Mormons away from it and causing them to disassociate from Mormonism.
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I think for those who believed his story and Book of Mormon it will make no difference. You either accept it or dismiss it. No matter how many wives he had.
 
AKMVP said:
I think for those who believed his story and Book of Mormon it will make no difference. You either accept it or dismiss it. No matter how many wives he had.
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I disagree, I think knowledge will strengthen or weaken your beliefs. But I understand what you are saying. If you believe something usually you take new information and try to make it fit within your beliefs.
 
Broncster said:
It wasnt common back then, the average age of marriage was still 21 and it was generally not okay. Most states even then had an age of 16 as the age to consent to marriage. Although some places were younger back then. Regardless of the law, I believe that is not an age of consent to be married or for sex. If I believed god was giving divine inspiration I believe he would know that was not okay. But if you think differently and you think your god thinks differently that is your belief. I think it is disturbing and disgusting.

Additionally I was simply providing an example. Pick another example of something in your beliefs history that seems like the leader made a bad choice. I was genuinely curious about what Coltons beliefs would be on this would be, since I respect his opinions and beliefs and he states them well.

I also dont think it is okay for a leader of a religion to use a religious reason to take someone wife as their own. If that is okay to you I would be curious why but I am not opposed to it if you believe in that.

I assume if some of these things were happening today people would be more disturbed. I think moral values should have been the same within a religion then as they are now. I will say that moral values are much higher now then they were back then as a society and within Mormonism though. My understanding which could be wrong, is that the things happening then with polygamy and what Joseph Smith did not stop because god decided they were bad or wrong but because divine inspiration decided that society did not except and it was against the law. Polygamy seemingly still exists within Mormonism in the after life and therefore would exist in this life if laws permitted it and was needed for some reason.
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I have no religious beliefs, personally. I'm an atheist, and it is as clear as anything, in my view, that Joseph Smith and all other "prophets" are regular people.

You're assuming that God (hypothetically) would agree with your perspective on the absolute immorality of marrying a 14 year old. That is not necessarily so. Their culture's view on marriage, and women's role within society in general was very different than our own. You can argue that their whole perspective was prejudiced and sexist, and I would agree with you, but you still have to judge their morality within their cultural context.

Either way, I'm not sure why I'm even offering my opinion, since your objections seem targeted at believers who think JS consorted with God. Obviously if someone believes that morality is given by a deity, and that it is absolute regardless of historical and cultural context, then they would have to explain the seemingly immoral behavior of their religious figures.
 
"Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's wife)."

Good thing they were his friends', not neighbors wives.
 
Broncster said:
It wasnt common back then, the average age of marriage was still 21 and it was generally not okay. Most states even then had an age of 16 as the age to consent to marriage. Although some places were younger back then. Regardless of the law, I believe that is not an age of consent to be married or for sex. If I believed god was giving divine inspiration I believe he would know that was not okay. But if you think differently and you think your god thinks differently that is your belief. I think it is disturbing and disgusting.

Additionally I was simply providing an example. Pick another example of something in your beliefs history that seems like the leader made a bad choice. I was genuinely curious about what Coltons beliefs would be on this would be, since I respect his opinions and beliefs and he states them well.

I also dont think it is okay for a leader of a religion to use a religious reason to take someone wife as their own. If that is okay to you I would be curious why but I am not opposed to it if you believe in that.

I assume if some of these things were happening today people would be more disturbed. I think moral values should have been the same within a religion then as they are now. I will say that moral values are much higher now then they were back then as a society and within Mormonism though. My understanding which could be wrong, is that the things happening then with polygamy and what Joseph Smith did not stop because god decided they were bad or wrong but because divine inspiration decided that society did not except and it was against the law. Polygamy seemingly still exists within Mormonism in the after life and therefore would exist in this life if laws permitted it and was needed for some reason.
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You seem upset about something
 
Siro said:
I have no religious beliefs, personally. I'm an atheist, and it is as clear as anything, in my view, that Joseph Smith and all other "prophets" are regular people.

You're assuming that God (hypothetically) would agree with your perspective on the absolute immorality of marrying a 14 year old. That is not necessarily so. Their culture's view on marriage, and women's role within society in general was very different than our own. You can argue that their whole perspective was prejudiced and sexist, and I would agree with you, but you still have to judge their morality within their cultural context.

Either way, I'm not sure why I'm even offering my opinion, since your objections seem targeted at believers who think JS consorted with God. Obviously if someone believes that morality is given by a deity, and that it is absolute regardless of historical and cultural context, then they would have to explain the seemingly immoral behavior of their religious figures.
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I am an atheist as well. I am interested in peoples beliefs and generally like understand them better from their perspective.

I am not objecting to anything they are saying just curious. I also assume if you believe in God then you would not believe that his morals are changing over time.
 
fishonjazz said:
You seem upset about something
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Wasnt meant to be angry. My wife says I text angrily too. Only thing I took exception too was what I thought was Siro saying there was not a big deal out of a 14 year old getting married. If someone thinks its okay I would listen to the argument but still disagree. I am genuinely interested in this discussion.
 
I know 14 year olds that are more mentally capable then 30 year olds. Me personally I don't like them young but if someone else did especially in an era were young people were expected to make money to earn a living and life expectancy was lower who am I to oppose?
 
Broncster said:
Wasnt meant to be angry. My wife says I text angrily too. Only thing I took exception too was what I thought was Siro saying there was not a big deal out of a 14 year old getting married. If someone thinks its okay I would listen to the argument but still disagree. I am genuinely interested in this discussion.
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No worries, carry on bro.
 
Broncster said:
Would it be within your beliefs to think that any of this was not divine inspiration and Joseph Smith made a mistake with some or all of it?
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Speaking of my own views, I think that he was given the divine authority and command to institute polygamy but then he was probably left to his own devices to implement it (perhaps with additional occasional inspiration). That tends to be how God does things, from what I've seen. So sure, I think that Joseph Smith was not perfect and may well have made mistakes in his handling of it.

I think the LDS church should say that the marriage to the 14 year old is not okay and separate that out from divine inspiration.
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For what it's worth, times were obviously quite different then, and my understanding is that 14 year olds could and did get married from time to time. Even as recent as ~60 years ago, my wife's grandma was only 16 when she got married. And Joseph Smith was more than 100 years before that.

I dont think the LDS church should claim or think that everything Joseph Smith did was the right thing and God wanted it done. He is human and therefore not perfect. I know the LDS church believes that but never seems to be an answer for why something was done by a prophet.

I do think talking openly about LDS history and all of its beliefs more upfront and honest is a good PR move and good for people in or out of the LDS church. No one should find out things they dont like or dont understand properly about their religion because it is swept under the rug.
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I agree with nearly all of that. Regarding the bolded section, though, that did seem to be more-or-less the explanation given in the church's recent article on why blacks couldn't have the priesthood until 1978. Or at least it's implied. Worth reading, if you haven't seen it. Here's an excerpt: "Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church." https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
 
Duck Rodgers said:
The people that would be "shaken" by this type of thing if the information is new to them are the people that need to be shaken. Joesph Smith is important to Mormons.....but nobody should be mistaking him for Jesus.
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Luckily, I don't know, nor have I ever heard of anyone that does.
 
Man, that Mormon stuff is pretty weird. Any new information in that article about the special underwear?
 
VINYLONE said:
Man, that Mormon stuff is pretty weird. Any new information in that article about the special underwear?
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*Magic underwear

If you think Mo's are weird, you should check out the J-Dubs, Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.
 
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