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It's Official: Mormon Founder Joseph Smith had up to 40 wives

Broncster said:
Wasnt meant to be angry. My wife says I text angrily too. Only thing I took exception too was what I thought was Siro saying there was not a big deal out of a 14 year old getting married. If someone thinks its okay I would listen to the argument but still disagree. I am genuinely interested in this discussion.
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We are as flawed today as any people have ever been.

14 yr females of that time and place consider their decisions to marry as well"reasoned as any early teens today, who take pride in their " trophy babes" sired by teen hoodsters.

Who are we to impose our values on anyone.
 
Qman said:
Is this news? I thought most of this was common knowledge.
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No it wasn't and that why the LDS decided to come clean. Yes it was common knowledge that JS had more than one wife but it wasn't really common knowledge how many he had. It was rarely discussed for years.
 
E.J. Wells said:
Apperantly not. Another fantastic thread though, bro. You forgot the part where Smith was a lawman and abused his powers on some random, innocent, and unarmed* black kid.



If you bothered reading the news (rather, anything besides the daily gossip clips from liberal websites), you'd have read about this crap weeks, and maybe even months ago. It was the church who started publishing the info in the first place, so I'm not really sure how/why this is getting your flaps in a tangle.

Also, if your parents really lose their "esteem" for him because of this... Well, let's just say that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and you're a ****ing moron, so...

Holy ****! Joseph Smith wasn't perfect?! This is some Earth shattering stuff.




*no fairy's were killed due to using this term in a sarcastic manner.
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Whoa man, you're soooo witty!!!! That hilarious sarcasm/asterisk bit about Mike Brown being innocent and unarmed was genius. Continuing to mock a dead kid? ****ing brilliant!!!!!

You can call my parents and me ****ing morons all you want, but the 'flaps in a tangle' remark is going to get you banned. I received infractions for calling a male poster girly once, so I can't imagine the penalty you will receive from the mods*.

*that was sarcasm because the mods haven't done anything despite your repeated racist, personally insulting posts that I've flagged and reported in the last few weeks.
 
for anyone who thinks birth control is a RECENT invention, think again...

11,000 B.C.: The first evidence of condoms is an arsty one. Caves in France known as Grotte des Combarrelles are said to be the oldest evidence of condoms, with a painting on the wall that scientists say represents them.

1000 B.C.: Some historians argue that condoms made from cloth were used in Ancient Egypt to protect against disease.

1400s A.D.: Glans condoms — ones that only covered the head of the penis — were used in China and Japan. In China, they were made from lamb intestines or oiled silk paper; in Japan, the materials of choice were tortoise shell or animal horn. Hm, tough choice.

1500s: Italian physician and atomist Gabrielle Fallopius writes about the horrors of the then-frequently fatal STD syphilis in De Morbo Gallico. He recommended the use of a protective linen sheath, soaked in chemicals and dried, which would help prevent the acquirement of the disease. Fallopius conducted an experiment using 1,100 participants to determine the early condom's effectiveness; none became infected with syphilis. Condoms to the rescue.

1605: Catholic theologian Leonardus Lessius claimed in De iustitia et iure that condoms are immoral. Side note: strange how we're still facing that argument today?

1600s: Condoms made from animal intestines were first made available to the public. Because of their expensive nature, though, they are frequently reused — something we know to be a big no-no nowadays.

1666: When the birth rate dropped, the English Birth Rate Commission attributed it to "condons" — the first time that word had been published.
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www.yourtango.com/2013189729/condom-timeline-detailed-history-wrapping-it#

also

1550 B.C.
An Egyptian manuscript called the Ebers Papyrus directs women on how to mix dates, acacia and honey into a paste, smear it over wool and use it as a pessary to prevent conception

1700s
Casanova's memoirs detail his experiments in birth control, from sheep-bladder condoms to the use of half a lemon as a makeshift cervical cap

1839
Charles Goodyear invents the technology to vulcanize rubber and puts it to use manufacturing rubber condoms, intrauterine devices, douching syringes and "womb veils"

1873
Congress passes an antiobscenity law that deems birth control info obscene and outlaws its dissemination. At the time, the U.S. is the only Western nation to criminalize contraception

1880s
A large cervical cap is developed--an early version of the diaphragm

1916
Margaret Sanger opens America's first family-planning clinic, in Brooklyn. It is shut down within 10 days
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https://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1982/6/82.06.03.x.html
The evidence of ancient contraceptive knowledge, methods of birth control which (unlike infanticide and abortion) are used before conception, is impressive.

A list of contraceptive methods would include: withdrawal by the male; melting suppositories designed to form an impenetrable coating over the cervix; diaphragms, caps, or other devices which are inserted into the vagina over the cervix and withdrawn after intercourse; intrauterine devices; douching after intercourse designed to kill or drive out the sperm; condoms; and varieties of the rhythm methods. None of these methods are new. Except for the addition of the modern birth control pill introduced in 1960, there are no new methods. All of these techniques were practiced in the ancient world and in modern pre-industrial societies.


Coitus interruptus, withdrawal, was practiced in Africa, Australasia, the Middle East, and in Europe. Though condemned by Judaism and Roman Catholicism, its practice was common enough in Medieval Europe and later to be frequently attacked in canonical writings as a vice against nature...

Coitus obstructus was a method recommended in several Sanskrit texts which required pressing on the forepart of the ********; the pressure of the finger there may block the urethra forcing ***** into the bladder. Coitus reservatus is a method whereby the male avoids ejaculation entirely. This method was used by the Hindus and reappeared among some American Utopian societies in the 19th Century.

A pessary is a vaginal suppository used to kill sperm and/or block their passage through the cervix. The pessary was the most effective contraceptive device used in ancient times and numerous recipes for pessaries from ancient times are known. Ingredients for pessaries included: a base of crocodile dung (dung was frequently a base), a mixture of honey and natural sodium carbonate forming a kind of gum. All were of a consistency which would melt at body temperature and form an impenetrable covering of the cervix. The use of oil was also suggested by Aristotle and advocated as late as 1931 by birth control advocate Marie Stopes.

Another kind of pessary was a solid object to block the cervix. This method was popular in pre-industrial societies, especially Africa; here women used plugs of chopped grass or cloth. Balls of bamboo tissue paper were used by Japanese prostitutes, wool by Islamic and Greek women, linen rags by Slavic women (Gordon, p. 43). The sponge used by Ancient Jews was considered the most effective contraceptive in use until the development of the diaphragm. The sea sponge was wrapped in silk with a string attached.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

Birth control and abortion are well documented in Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt. (See History of abortion.) The Ebers Papyrus from 1550 BCE and the Kahun Papyrus from 1850 BCE have within them some of the earliest documented descriptions of birth control, the use of honey, acacia leaves and lint to be placed in the vagina to block sperm.[5][6] Another early document explicitly referring to birth control methods is the Kahun Gynecological Papyrus from about 1850 BCE. It describes various contraceptive pessaries, including acacia gum, which recent research has confirmed to have spermatocidal qualities and is still used in contraceptive jellies. Other birth control methods mentioned in the papyrus include the application of gummy substances to cover the "mouth of the womb" (i.e. the cervix), a mixture of honey and sodium carbonate applied to the inside of the vagina, and a pessary made from crocodile dung. Lactation (breast-feeding) of up to three years was also used for birth control purposes in ancient Egypt.

Plants with contraceptive properties were used in Ancient Greece from the 7th century BCE onwards and documented by numerous ancient writers on gynaecology, such as Hippocrates. The botanist Theophrastus documented the use of Silphium, a plant well known for its contraceptive and abortifacient properties. The plant only grew on a small strip of land near the coastal city of Cyrene (located in modern day Libya), with attempts to cultivate it elsewhere failing. Its price increased due to high demand, leading to it being worth "more than its weight in silver" by the 1st century BC. The high demand eventually led to the extinction of Silphium during the 3rd or 2nd century BC.[7] Asafoetida, a close relative of siliphion, was also used for its contraceptive properties. Other plants commonly used for birth control in ancient Greece include Queen Anne's lace (Daucus carota), willow, date palm, pomegranate, pennyroyal, artemisia, myrrh, and rue. Some of these plants are toxic and ancient Greek documents specify safe dosages. Recent studies have confirmed the birth control properties of many of these plants, confirming for example that Queen Anne's lace has post coital anti-fertility properties. Queen Anne's lace is still used today for birth control in India. Like their neighboring ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans practiced contraception and abortion.
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Excerpt August 1841

...Again he(Joseph Smith) said from the pulpit in the grove near the temple in Nauvoo, while he was preaching to a large audience; "If I could reveal the things which God has revealed to me, there are some on this stand that would cut my throat, or take my life's blood." We wondered if it were possible that that saying should be true. Again, while appealing to the people in that place, he supposed a case. He said; "Suppose we should send one of our elders to India or to some other people where it is lawful to have several wives - where they practiced polygamy and the elder would say unto them: "Your laws are not good, you should put away your plural wives." What would they do to him? They would kick him out of their realm. What right have we to speak against their laws and usages. God doesn't care what laws they make if they will live up to them." and the prophet continued; "What shall the elders preach? They shall preach the Gospel and nothing else but the pure Gospel, and some will believe and be baptized. He shall say nothing about the gathering, but confirm them members of the church and give them the Holy Ghost and pass on to other fields. When a man recieves the Holy Ghost it will teach him of the gathering of Zion. The Elder won't have to preach it. But when the Elder returns to visit his converts they shall accost him thus; "Elder, is there not a place in Zion where we might gather?" The Elder should not lie to him, but should say "Yes, brother, there is a land of Zion where the Saints of God are required to gather. Then the convert might say to the Elder; "I have five wives and I love each one as well as the other. Now what are the laws of Zion? Can I bring my five wives and enjoy them as I do here?" and, said the prophet, "Yes, the laws in Zion are such that you can bring your wives there."

The prophet went on preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom as though he had not said anything strange or appalling. But this was the first intimation I had received that polygamy would be preached or be lawful with this people. After the meeting, the prophet went to his dinner and, as it might be expected, several of the first women of the Church collected at the prophet's home with his wife. Said they to him: "Oh, Brother Smith, you have done it now! It will never do! It is blasphemy! You must take back what you have said today. It is outrageous and it would ruin us as a people." The prophet knew it would avail him nothing to prevail with the sisters in this mood, so he said: "I will have to take it back and leave it as though there had been nothing said."

But, as the Lord had revealed to him the principle of plural marriage and had informed him that the time had finally arrived that his doctorine should be taught and practiced by his people; as it was a very important item pertaining to the fulness of the Gospel, he deemed it wisdom to throw out something for the people to reflect upon. He wanted them to begin to digest that very important doctorine that belonged to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Prior to this enlightening, the prophet had besought the Lord to take his injunction off from him that he might not have the responsibility of introducing an putting into practice that order of things, because of the great opposition and because of the traditions of the people.

But it came to pass that instead of releasing him from that burden, the Lord sent an Holy Angel with a drawn sword unto him, saying, "Joseph, unless you go to and immediately teach this principle (namely, polygamy or plural marriage) and put the same into practice," that he, Joseph, would be slain. For thus sayeth the Lord: "The time has fully come that I will raise up seed unto me as I spake by my servant Jacob as is recorded in the Book of Mormon. Therefore, I command my people!"
 
heyhey said:
Excerpt August 1841

...Again he(Joseph Smith) said from the pulpit in the grove near the temple in Nauvoo, while he was preaching to a large audience; "If I could reveal the things which God has revealed to me, there are some on this stand that would cut my throat, or take my life's blood." We wondered if it were possible that that saying should be true. Again, while appealing to the people in that place, he supposed a case. He said; "Suppose we should send one of our elders to India or to some other people where it is lawful to have several wives - where they practiced polygamy and the elder would say unto them: "Your laws are not good, you should put away your plural wives." What would they do to him? They would kick him out of their realm. What right have we to speak against their laws and usages. God doesn't care what laws they make if they will live up to them." and the prophet continued; "What shall the elders preach? They shall preach the Gospel and nothing else but the pure Gospel, and some will believe and be baptized. He shall say nothing about the gathering, but confirm them members of the church and give them the Holy Ghost and pass on to other fields. When a man recieves the Holy Ghost it will teach him of the gathering of Zion. The Elder won't have to preach it. But when the Elder returns to visit his converts they shall accost him thus; "Elder, is there not a place in Zion where we might gather?" The Elder should not lie to him, but should say "Yes, brother, there is a land of Zion where the Saints of God are required to gather. Then the convert might say to the Elder; "I have five wives and I love each one as well as the other. Now what are the laws of Zion? Can I bring my five wives and enjoy them as I do here?" and, said the prophet, "Yes, the laws in Zion are such that you can bring your wives there."

The prophet went on preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom as though he had not said anything strange or appalling. But this was the first intimation I had received that polygamy would be preached or be lawful with this people. After the meeting, the prophet went to his dinner and, as it might be expected, several of the first women of the Church collected at the prophet's home with his wife. Said they to him: "Oh, Brother Smith, you have done it now! It will never do! It is blasphemy! You must take back what you have said today. It is outrageous and it would ruin us as a people." The prophet knew it would avail him nothing to prevail with the sisters in this mood, so he said: "I will have to take it back and leave it as though there had been nothing said."

But, as the Lord had revealed to him the principle of plural marriage and had informed him that the time had finally arrived that his doctorine should be taught and practiced by his people; as it was a very important item pertaining to the fulness of the Gospel, he deemed it wisdom to throw out something for the people to reflect upon. He wanted them to begin to digest that very important doctorine that belonged to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Prior to this enlightening, the prophet had besought the Lord to take his injunction off from him that he might not have the responsibility of introducing an putting into practice that order of things, because of the great opposition and because of the traditions of the people.

But it came to pass that instead of releasing him from that burden, the Lord sent an Holy Angel with a drawn sword unto him, saying, "Joseph, unless you go to and immediately teach this principle (namely, polygamy or plural marriage) and put the same into practice," that he, Joseph, would be slain. For thus sayeth the Lord: "The time has fully come that I will raise up seed unto me as I spake by my servant Jacob as is recorded in the Book of Mormon. Therefore, I command my people!"
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From the journal you mentioned earlier, I assume? Thanks for sharing, I found it very interesting. I'd heard many of the quotes from other sources (or quotes similar to these), but it was interesting to hear this observer's perspective.
 
Pardon my ignorance.. but is it OK to have multiple wives if you're a Mormon? I thought the Bible said you have to be faithful to only 1?
 
ONE LOVE said:
Pardon my ignorance.. but is it OK to have multiple wives if you're a Mormon? I thought the Bible said you have to be faithful to only 1?
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It's not legal in the U.S. to have more than one wife. As for Christianity, there is a lot of disagreement on the Bible's stance on polygamy, since the Old Testament is okay with it, but the New Testament is more conflicted.
 
Mormons should have issues for 3 reasons:

#1 contrary to what other posters have inferred, the church swept a lot of this under the rug/was unaware of these records previously. I've been in the church for 30 years and I hadn't heard about this. My parents? Over 50 years. They were unaware that JS was a polygamist. Brigham Young? Sure, they knew he had multiple wives. But not JS. Hence, why this release was such a big deal.

#2 it relates in a round about way to modern civil rights issues. The church for decades did not ordain blacks to the priesthood, did not perform sealings of mixed races, and supported polygamy. Today's civil/spiritual rights? Blacks now can have the priesthood, a small group of women are demanding it, and then there's the whole gay marriage thing. Outsiders everywhere would probably assume that the church will change its doctrine to accomadate these modern day demands. As the church has essentially done to accomadate the influx of black baptisms and join the USA (and getting rid of polygamy). While your diehard mormons will probably insist that women will never have the priesthood and gay marriage will forever be forbidden.

#3 this is hella tricky for mormons. As a bishop or a missionary in particular, this might be really hard to deal with. But the book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon specifically condemns polygamy... It brings up David and Solomon. I for one find it a bit troubling that polygamy is sometimes allowed and sometimes forbidden. Where's the consistency? And if a prophet were to lead us down a forbidden path, such as introducing apostasy for selfish reasons, why isn't he taken out? Isn't that what Mormons have been taught before? The Lord isn't supposed to allow any prophet of the church to lead his flock astray.

So if he doesn't take out the prophet, what other forms of apostasy has been introduced? Was the ban on blacks receiving the priesthood apostasy? What do we make of Ezra Taft Benson's radical political views? Could church doctrine be adjusted to accommodate women receiving the priesthood?

All of this opens a can of worms. I have no idea why the hell polygamy was ever even practiced. I don't want to hear the "sealings excuse." Mormons are taught that after they die they still may be sealed. So faithful sisters in the pioneer times would have been taken care of... Eventually. So why was it introduced?

The 2 biggest controversies of the church over the past 200 years are still really tough to explain.
 
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