Should Teacher Tenure Be Abolished?

[CONAN]

So why do you think it necessary for a person to have done a thing in order to criticize a thing.

Criticize away just be aware of a certain level of ignorance.

Nobody has to be an expert on teachers in order to say: I don't know about you, but many of my teachers weren't worth the paper their various certificates were printed on.

Sure but to use that anectdotal data as a basis for judging the whole is again ignorant.

This idea that any criticism of teachers is invalid because it is made by people who haven't taught, or done research, is a pretty cheap argumentative tactic. I did 13 years of research by being a student who went to school every day and realized: Hey, this is a major problem. Most of these teachers don't seem like they care about what they're doing.

You can go to 50 years of schooling and your sample size is still very small and again anectdotal.

Students generally don't succeed because of teachers: those who have special success usually would have had it regardless of who their teachers happened to be, because they were curious people who were interested in learning and willing to do the work. College shows us this. But, heaven knows many teachers are quick to point the finger at parents when a student isn't succeeding.

This is definitely off a bit. It's not so black and white.

So, do teachers deserve the credit but not the blame?

Both.

My own opinion is, they don't necessarily deserve the blame except in certain extreme cases where the teacher is a real dickgoblin. Many of us had at least one such teacher. (For references, see the Pink Floyd song, "Another Brick in the Wall, Pt. 2.") By the same token, they don't usually deserve the credit except in certain extreme cases. (See: your favorite teacher.)

That's a very narrow-minded and ignorant view.

So what I propose is: let's not be so impressed with teachers.

Pride rearing it's ugly head here.

 

[Stickler]

I'm not giving evidence. I've never claimed to be providing evidence. I've been exceedingly clear about that. Continuing to dig at me because my evidence is anecdotal is just pointless. You're right: my "evidence" is anecdotal. I fully understand and agree.

Could you explain why my view that teachers should only occasionally be given the credit for a student's success or failure is narrow-minded and ignorant? What is it, exactly, about that statement that you would disagree with?

Could you explain why you think "pride" has reared its ugly head? What is it about my statement that I don't find teachers, in general, to be so impressive as to deserve a place of heroism in our society, that you find prideful?

Thank you.

 

[LogGrad98]

Criticize away just be aware of a certain level of ignorance.


Sure but to use that anectdotal data as a basis for judging the whole is again ignorant.


You can go to 50 years of schooling and your sample size is still very small and again anectdotal.


This is definitely off a bit. It's not so black and white.


Both.


That's a very narrow-minded and ignorant view.


Pride rearing it's ugly head here.

Well apparently we have a new Unibrow. Didn't you know the line-by-line response shtick is already taken?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm not giving evidence. I've never claimed to be providing evidence. I've been exceedingly clear about that. Continuing to dig at me because my evidence is anecdotal is just pointless. You're right: my "evidence" is anecdotal. I fully understand and agree.

Could you explain why my view that teachers should only occasionally be given the credit for a student's success or failure is narrow-minded and ignorant? What is it, exactly, about that statement that you would disagree with?

Could you explain why you think "pride" has reared its ugly head? What is it about my statement that I don't find teachers, in general, to be so impressive as to deserve a place of heroism in our society, that you find prideful?

Thank you.

The problem with your argument is why anybody should take anything you say in this topic as anything but anecdotal and based solely on your experience and so not particularly germane to the thread? It would be like someone saying Alaska is warm because he/she spent one day there and it was unseasonably warm.

 

[CONAN]

Well apparently we have a new Unibrow. Didn't you know the line-by-line response shtick is already taken?

Agreed.

 

[CONAN]

The problem with your argument is why anybody should take anything you say in this topic as anything but anecdotal and based solely on your experience and so not particularly germane to the thread? It would be like someone saying Alaska is warm because he/she spent one day there and it was unseasonably warm.

Not to say non-teachers don't have plenty of good stuff to contribute. But to come in and start running your mouth when it's clear you are coming from a position of ignorance is lamish.

 

[CONAN]

Speaking of anectdotes, I know only a few teachers who think of themselves as heros or think they should be praised all day for what they do (they mostly suck anyway lol). Personally, I think that's a myth perpetuated by haters. But again just a combination of anectdotes and personal opinion here.

 

[Stickler]

Not to say non-teachers don't have plenty of good stuff to contribute. But to come in and start running your mouth when it's clear you are coming from a position of ignorance is lamish.

I wouldn't characterize talking about my experiences as "running my mouth." I also wouldn't characterize my position as one of ignorance. A person who says, "in my experience X" is not automatically wrong. It could be that X is entirely valid.

 

[Stickler]

The problem with your argument is why anybody should take anything you say in this topic as anything but anecdotal and based solely on your experience and so not particularly germane to the thread? It would be like someone saying Alaska is warm because he/she spent one day there and it was unseasonably warm.

Actually, I don't think it would be like that at all. It would be more like if someone lived in Alaska for 13 years, and spent several years apiece in cities and towns in different parts of the state, and was engaged in the community, and then reported that Alaska had nasty winters, because they had lived through them, and their friends had lived through them, and it seemed pretty clear that Alaskan winters were rough.

But then a lot of other people came along and said, "I lived in Alaska, too, and the winters were okay. Whatever you have to say about Alaskan winters is not germane to this topic because you haven't done any research to verify that Alaskan winters are tough."

The person who originally posted that Alaskan winters were so tough, would have to say to himself, "gee, maybe their experiences were different than mine. "Tough" and "nasty" are pretty subjective phrases, after all. Nevertheless, I personally had a hard time with all those cold winters in Alaska, and so my statements -- which were always framed as what _I_ think about Alaskan winters -- remain true.

 

[One Brow]

Well apparently we have a new Unibrow. Didn't you know the line-by-line response shtick is already taken?

Awwww, someone got their little feelings hurt. It'll be OK, kid.

 

[sirkickyass]

Apparently OSU's president (Gordon Gee) is, in academic circles, very highly respected by his peers. Until he said this stuff at least. Surprise surprise.

Gordon Gee was my university president before he moved on to OSU.

He's skilled at two things: Fundraising and selecting hilariously out of date bow ties.

Never heard a good thing about him about any other subject. But apparently his fund raising skills are otherworldly.

 

[Scat]

I'm just hoping before people advocate to heavily against the unions, tenure, etc., they look at why we have them in the first place. Sometimes cures are worse than diseases.

I have no argument that unions have had a very profound and very positive affect on American labor practices. That being said, many unions have now become the disease. They have moved beyond guaranteeing fair employment practices to holding many American businesses hostage with unrealistic if not unsustainable demands. Case in point, NJEA.

I've also personally dealt with some crazy *** unions over the years in my line of work. Stuff like forcing you to call a union worker to hook a garden hose to a water spiggot at a trade show. On Long Island, NY you need to call a union plumber to repair a cracked PVC line in a place of business. The downside is that if they find I did these things myself or hired a non-union worker they picket the business and interupt business by harassing clients.

I personally can patch PVC and I can certainly thread a hose onto a spiggot but they insist I pay some clown $75 an hour to do these things for me. Not to mention I can do it right then and there whereas the plumber or electrician usually can't get to it for a day or two and on LI you can wait for up to a week.

Yes, unions have done some good in the past but many are now drunk on power and out of control.

 

[GoJazz]

I am sorry but teachers just don't do that much work. If you really look at what they do they work a 180 days per year and they work 6 hour days that include lunches. I know the next comment is some teacher talking about all the grading and after school work they do. Guess what if you do that you are the exception not the rule. The rule is that 80% of the people in most organizations do 20% of the work and 20% do 80% of the work. Im sorry that is just how the world is. It's called the Prado Rule. So I feel we should find a way to figure out the 20% doing the 80% of the work and pay them 80% of the wages. Then take the other 80% doing 20% of the work and pay them 20% of the wages. This would be the FAIR and EQUITABLE thing to do so the liberals should feel warm and fuzzy about it.

 

[Archie Moses]

I am sorry but teachers just don't do that much work.

Yeah, educating 30 to 35 kids about essential knowledge like reading, writing, math, English, etc is a walk in the park. Teachers don't do ****! Home school kids for the win.

 

[CONAN]

I wouldn't characterize talking about my experiences as "running my mouth." I also wouldn't characterize my position as one of ignorance. A person who says, "in my experience X" is not automatically wrong. It could be that X is entirely valid.

You can call it whatever you want. It is what it is. And if you did hit the bullseye it'd be luck versus a well-thought, researched opinion. Spray and pray, huh?

 

[CONAN]

Actually, I don't think it would be like that at all. It would be more like if someone lived in Alaska for 13 years, and spent several years apiece in cities and towns in different parts of the state, and was engaged in the community, and then reported that Alaska had nasty winters, because they had lived through them, and their friends had lived through them, and it seemed pretty clear that Alaskan winters were rough.

But then a lot of other people came along and said, "I lived in Alaska, too, and the winters were okay. Whatever you have to say about Alaskan winters is not germane to this topic because you haven't done any research to verify that Alaskan winters are tough."

The person who originally posted that Alaskan winters were so tough, would have to say to himself, "gee, maybe their experiences were different than mine. "Tough" and "nasty" are pretty subjective phrases, after all. Nevertheless, I personally had a hard time with all those cold winters in Alaska, and so my statements -- which were always framed as what _I_ think about Alaskan winters -- remain true.

You got an F in Analogies 101 didn't you?

 

[Stickler]

You can call it whatever you want. It is what it is. And if you did hit the bullseye it'd be luck versus a well-thought, researched opinion. Spray and pray, huh?

That is not my philosophy, no. I can see you want to get personal now, so I will disengage. Good luck with everything.

 

[CONAN]

You fix the unions by fixing the union leadership. You fix that by not paying them and only letting current teachers be eligible for leadership.

 

[Stickler]

You got an F in Analogies 101 didn't you?

Never did take a class called Analogies 101, but if you think making an assumption about something with one day's experience is analogous to spending 13 years immersed in something, and then commenting on it, I would have to disagree with you.

 

[CONAN]

That is not my philosophy, no. I can see you want to get personal now, so I will disengage. Good luck with everything.

Ya no duh it's personal, Einstein. This is my life and my career you inconsiderate chucklehead. And when I see some lamer spouting off and spewing BS I will put him down like a sick dog.

Class dismissed, Ol Yeller.