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150 Terrorists invade Oregon

I agree that this is huge fuel for these people and their supporters Babe. There are a ton of fence sitters that just got pushed into their camp IMO.

I doubt that.

Also, the vast majority of Americans are against them. So if it's a fight that you and your ilk want then it's a fight you'll get. If you want to start something me and millions more will send you to the same place Capt Moroni just got sent to.

Sounds like you folks want a civil war. Didn't you learn the last time you idiot rednecks wanted to start something? I'll gladly pick up arms and fight for my country when under attack. For every fence sitter siding with you and the Bundys there are millions of fence sitters siding with me and my government.

God Bless America!
 
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I find it disgusting the lack of support you're giving law enforcement. Meanwhile, you're giving terrorists and criminals the benefit of the doubt.

Law enforcement lives matter
 
I find your lack of reading comprehension, inability to understand nuance, name calling and intentional misinterpreting people's posts to be disgusting.
 
I find your lack of reading comprehension, inability to understand nuance, name calling and intentional misinterpreting people's posts to be disgusting.

Wah wah.

You confederates Gonna take over another refuge? Me and my country will be right there waiting to enforce the law.

I love my country. I don't just see it as land to exploit.

Law enforcement lives matter
 
Who is this directed to, guy?

You, Stoked, and Game.

Pretty disgusting that you folks turn against law enforcement because you agree with this idiot's politics. Funny how law enforcement lives only matter when blacks are being killed. But as soon as one of your dumbass redneck confederates are killed, suddenly law enforcement sucks, they're murderers, they're evil bla bla bla

Sorry, but if Bundys and the ilk want to start another civil war I'll gladly pick up arms and defend America with my life. I love my country and by damned I won't let idiot terrorists take it over.
 
How the **** did you translate what I said to 1. Disgusting and 2. Me turning away from law enforcement, you ****ing ****?
 
You, Stoked, and Game.

Pretty disgusting that you folks turn against law enforcement because you agree with this idiot's politics. Funny how law enforcement lives only matter when blacks are being killed. But as soon as one of your dumbass redneck confederates are killed, suddenly law enforcement sucks, they're murderers, they're evil bla bla bla

Sorry, but if Bundys and the ilk want to start another civil war I'll gladly pick up arms and defend America with my life. I love my country and by damned I won't let idiot terrorists take it over.

Umm, I don't agree with their politics.

I'm sure it's hard for you to understand that I can condemn an action taken by the side I support.
 
RIP #tarpman. From what I've read, supposedly he had his hands up when shot 3 times. If this is true, thoughts?

I'm not buying that - consider the source: Lisa Bundy, Ammon's wife as he apparently called her from the back of a police car. He stated that they shot him when he was surrendering and when he was on the ground was shot more times.

What's more believable: that he refused to surrender and made an aggressive move where law enforcement had to shoot or that the feds, who wanted to have no bloodshed for obvious optics, just said '**** it, let's light this fool up.'? Nonsense.

I won't be the least bit shocked if the feds and police had five cameras out there at the stop from multiple angles - they came prepared with ample components for evidence and eventual prosecution, make no mistake about it. The days to come will probably cement this.
 
I'm not buying that - consider the source: Lisa Bundy, Ammon's wife as he apparently called her from the back of a police car. He stated that they shot him when he was surrendering and when he was on the ground was shot more times.

What's more believable: that he refused to surrender and made an aggressive move where law enforcement had to shoot or that the feds, who wanted to have no bloodshed for obvious optics, just said '**** it, let's light this fool up.'? Nonsense.

I won't be the least bit shocked if the feds and police had five cameras out there at the stop from multiple angles - they came prepared with ample components for evidence and eventual prosecution, make no mistake about it. The days to come will probably cement this.

I was thinking the same thing about the cams. I guess, maybe we'll see if true or not.
 
What I do find is interesting is that Jon Ritzheimer (one of the ringleaders) was in Arizona and had full knowledge that the FBI was watching him, knew what charges he's being brought up on and was already in full post-standoff mode.

I've heard the term 'snitch' thrown around, but it wasn't a secret by any means that the group was having these meetings miles and miles from the refuge and outside of a comfort zone, so to speak.

My guess is that he knew the writing was on the wall, couldn't spend the rest of his life away from his family on some cold piece of barren property hundreds of miles away from them and decided to play some ball that he would leave in exchange for leniency on his charges.

One thing's for sure: I wouldn't donate a dime to this guy. This guy has begged for money repeatedly for his anti-Muslim activities and posts a video of his sobbing daughters (genuinely upset) in an effort to build up some funds for a defense attorney. Honestly, it's pretty sickening that he trots out his family for sympathy when he's put himself in this position and is the reason he's not home kissing them goodnight and sleeping in a bed with his wife.

Here's to hoping his kids find a better way in life.
 
I doubt that.

Also, the vast majority of Americans are against them. So if it's a fight that you and your ilk want then it's a fight you'll get. If you want to start something me and millions more will send you to the same place Capt Moroni just got sent to.

Sounds like you folks want a civil war. Didn't you learn the last time you idiot rednecks wanted to start something? I'll gladly pick up arms and fight for my country when under attack. For every fence sitter siding with you and the Bundys there are millions of fence sitters siding with me and my government.

God Bless America!

It's really not your government, it's ours. A few posts ago you were pretty level headed. I've been looking up some stuff on this. The officials of Harney County were coming out to distance themselves from the protesters. This is ranching country, and few locals would have joined the standoff. The Bundys didn't make their case even with the local ranchers.

I don't think many people understand the rancher's side generally. Most ranchers are willing to comply with federal land policies, but more have just quit ranching and gotten jobs in town. ranchers and farmers have for almost a hundred years been giving up small-scale operations and getting college educated for teaching, business, and other professions.

I know federal planners are actually planning to reduce public access to government lands. I know the federal policies concerning agriculture have favored corporate ag business while being bit slow to help the little guys. Clear back in the 1950s the Dept of Ag wrote out a long-range plan for reducing family farming and encouraging larger operations. The markets would have done this with any thumbs on the scales, but that has been the actual policy behind all the smiles and pretensions of helping the family farmer. I've seen on UN websites the maps of the United States the big plans call for. Would require acquisition of large spreads of lands now private. Yah we got too many people, and if people have access to the land they can live sorta independent lives. That's bad for Management. Fed policy can be counted on to continue the pressure on rural life.

The point will come when a lot of people will begin to wonder why, when National Parks are closed to tourists to preserve the natural wilderness qualities, and highways are ripped up and replaced with soil or rock.

The trend we're on began with Adam Clayton Powell and will continue as long as the socialist/oligarchs own our government. Gradualism has kept a lot of farmers and ranchers willing to just be cooperative with Fed land policies and administrative policies in regard to commodity production in general, but mentally-unbalanced ideologues just never know when enough is enough, and they've already gone too far.

The political process of our country will turn around on this issue, but it will take decades if not a hundred years for common sense and prudence to displace ideological political imperatives and the mythologies that direct our policies today.
 
Legal Acquisition of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge

The refuge the Bundys ignorantly chose to take their stand on is mostly playa, or seasonal shallow lake, sometimes almost entirely dry, and sometimes a lake almost twice the size of the refuge. I don't think anyone. . .. ranchers, Indians. . . ever complained about it becoming a wildlife refuge. All it was ever good for was duck and pheasant hunting.
About one third of it was actually purchased from ranchers who probably just didn't really want it that much.

No wonder the locals thought the protesters were idiots.

Still, there are grass areas that get pretty deep in a wet year on some margins. The probability of fires crossing boundaries is pretty high, but it would also take an idiot to start a fire even on the private side. Burning grass is no kind of necessity. Let some cows eat it.

So all said, I think the Feds insisting on the mandatory sentences for the Hammonds was inflammatory, but the protestors took it the wrong way to go take a stand in the refuge headquarters. As a target for a protest of Fed land policies, this is about the worst case you could pick to draw attention to. Wildlife Refuge is what this land should be.
 
I doubt that.

Also, the vast majority of Americans are against them. So if it's a fight that you and your ilk want then it's a fight you'll get. If you want to start something me and millions more will send you to the same place Capt Moroni just got sent to.

Sounds like you folks want a civil war. Didn't you learn the last time you idiot rednecks wanted to start something? I'll gladly pick up arms and fight for my country when under attack. For every fence sitter siding with you and the Bundys there are millions of fence sitters siding with me and my government.

God Bless America!

You've served in the military?
 
The leader of the protestors who died, Robert “LaVoy” Finicum, had repeatedly said he would not be taken alive. Taking him at his word, it's hard for me to believe he was killed while assuming a position of surrender, his arms in the air, his hands behind his head, or whatever. I don't believe that. Sounds more likely that he decided to commit suicide by police, to be a martyr for his cause. He was a man of his word. He was not going to be taken alive. So, he's just standing there, with his arms in a position of surrender, and then shot dead? I don't think so. The authorities attempted these arrests where they did in order to avoid an even bloodier assault at the refuge. I'm sure the authorities, from the start, wanted to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge. But I was wrong thinking they would just allow the occupation to continue indefinitely. Did not happen. No surprise to me if they met armed resistance from guys who had already indicated that is exactly what authorities would be met with. And Finicum was good for his word. He would need to be taken dead, and he was.
 
Umm, I don't agree with their politics.

I'm sure it's hard for you to understand that I can condemn an action taken by the side I support.

Or the fact that I have said taking this refugee was stupid. That I think they are doing more harm to their cause (not mine) than good.

But none of that matters when you have an ax to grind! Damn the truth!
 
I'm not buying that - consider the source: Lisa Bundy, Ammon's wife as he apparently called her from the back of a police car. He stated that they shot him when he was surrendering and when he was on the ground was shot more times.

What's more believable: that he refused to surrender and made an aggressive move where law enforcement had to shoot or that the feds, who wanted to have no bloodshed for obvious optics, just said '**** it, let's light this fool up.'? Nonsense.

I won't be the least bit shocked if the feds and police had five cameras out there at the stop from multiple angles - they came prepared with ample components for evidence and eventual prosecution, make no mistake about it. The days to come will probably cement this.

This is what I believe but like other shootings where the facts are disputed I hope it receives due diligence. Who fired first, did they both fire, when did they fire, what was said, what was done, was he facing them or turned around...

Only thing that we know for certain is that he is dead. No idea if it was justifiable or not. We don't know enough facts to make that determination IMO.
 
I just typed out a long response that got deleted right as I was hitting send. Will try to compose it again later. Had nothing to do with the topic specifically, but rather political correctness in America (nauseating).
 
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