jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I implied that you thought it didn't. I suspect you're right. Consistency isn't, and never has been, a hallmark of human thinking/behavior.
150 Terrorists invade Oregon
- Thread starter The Thriller
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Sorry if I implied that you thought it didn't. I suspect you're right. Consistency isn't, and never has been, a hallmark of human thinking/behavior.
Amen to that lol.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Has anyone else seen the video the FBI released of the shooting? Here are my thoughts.
1. Finicum was a moron for running and put lives in the truck in danger.
2. The FBI agent who jumped in front of the truck and almost got smashed is a moron.
3. The footage is clearly edited. He gets out of the truck way to fast. I bet the FBI did this because what the 18-year-old girl said was true. The shot at the truck when it was stopped. 3 shots my ***. You can see in the video yourself the truck has bullet holes.
EDIT: I guess the first shot were taken much earlier in the clip when they stopped on the truck. Finicum took off when they got shot at. Hmmm... Interesting.
4. Finicum clearly had his hands in the air and didn't charge anyone.
5. He does look to put his hands to his side and reach for something. Did he have his revolver on his person when shot? Do you think he did this because he was fired upon first?
EDIT: After reading some more and watching the video again, it appears as though there is a flash/recoil from the officer's gun on the bottom of the screen when Finicum had his hands in the air and he was shot in the stomach. That makes sense why he turns away, bends down some and puts his hands down. To me, this pretty much looks like murder.
6. After watching many videos on Finicum, to me, he was clearly a guy with a good heart and intentions and got involved with something over his head. In my opinion, his blood staining the snow could have been avoided if Bundy didn't occupy/protest in such an ineffective way, Finicum never got involved (supposedly he initially went for just a day but saw an eagle on the way up there that inspired him to stand up for his rights and freedoms, the feds never initiated the traffic stops and followed through with making it end as peaceful as possible and just waited it out.
What are your thoughts?
1. Finicum was a moron for running and put lives in the truck in danger.
2. The FBI agent who jumped in front of the truck and almost got smashed is a moron.
3. The footage is clearly edited. He gets out of the truck way to fast. I bet the FBI did this because what the 18-year-old girl said was true. The shot at the truck when it was stopped. 3 shots my ***. You can see in the video yourself the truck has bullet holes.
EDIT: I guess the first shot were taken much earlier in the clip when they stopped on the truck. Finicum took off when they got shot at. Hmmm... Interesting.
4. Finicum clearly had his hands in the air and didn't charge anyone.
5. He does look to put his hands to his side and reach for something. Did he have his revolver on his person when shot? Do you think he did this because he was fired upon first?
EDIT: After reading some more and watching the video again, it appears as though there is a flash/recoil from the officer's gun on the bottom of the screen when Finicum had his hands in the air and he was shot in the stomach. That makes sense why he turns away, bends down some and puts his hands down. To me, this pretty much looks like murder.
6. After watching many videos on Finicum, to me, he was clearly a guy with a good heart and intentions and got involved with something over his head. In my opinion, his blood staining the snow could have been avoided if Bundy didn't occupy/protest in such an ineffective way, Finicum never got involved (supposedly he initially went for just a day but saw an eagle on the way up there that inspired him to stand up for his rights and freedoms, the feds never initiated the traffic stops and followed through with making it end as peaceful as possible and just waited it out.
What are your thoughts?
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Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ
Here's the video. This one looks like it wasn't edited like the one I saw last night on vimeo.
Here's the video. This one looks like it wasn't edited like the one I saw last night on vimeo.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Lastly, I've read and heard that the Mark McConnell, the guy who said he didn't have his hands up is an FBI informant. This whole thing is just wild to me. Is this real life?
In the video I saw he has hands raised. But then he pulls them in and puts them back out 2-3 times in rapid succession. I cannot tell if that's a reaction to being shot or what. Hard to tell with no real muzzle flashes that I can see and no audio.
My first question is why in the hell was an officer that deep into the woods? That seems like an ambush.
If, hard to tell, his hands were going in and out before he was shot then I won't blame the officers. Especially with this man's previous statements about not being taken alive and what not.
But if his hands coming in are from a gunshot wound then I think that the officers should be brought up on charges.
It's hard to tell the exact sequences of events though.
My first question is why in the hell was an officer that deep into the woods? That seems like an ambush.
If, hard to tell, his hands were going in and out before he was shot then I won't blame the officers. Especially with this man's previous statements about not being taken alive and what not.
But if his hands coming in are from a gunshot wound then I think that the officers should be brought up on charges.
It's hard to tell the exact sequences of events though.
The first time he put his hands down, he was clearly reaching for something. I'm ok with that, especially considering his history of statements, and that they found a loaded gun on him.
Why was there an officer in the woods? Well the first time they tried to pull them over, they ran. They had a great idea who it was, and that they were armed.. if I'm in charge and I have the man power I put people on both sides of the road behind the tree line(for cover). That's just a solid strategy.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
He may have been shot and they may have ran because, like the girl said, they were shot at when they stopped the first time. Either way, it wasn't worth it. What did this prove or accomplish?
But it doesn't look like he's in distress at the first change in direction. It looks like he pissed himself a bit, didn't know what to do when a gun is pointed at him, and changed his mind.
Having sound would clinch it though.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
It is hard to tell. I watched it probably 10 times and can't tell without audio. There's got to be more recordings from the roadblock, at least one would think.
Why did the officers charge him though when they were clearly out of position for either cover or to be in the way of crossfire? It kind of does look like he got shot from they way he turned his body and it does look like there is recoil from the officer's gun while his hands are in the air. Maybe that guy shot because his buddy just about got killed right by him (the guy who jumped in front of the truck) and was reacting from that. Either way, that McConnell guy is a liar and the lefty media ran with what he said and I never saw once, in many articles that were posted, him being quoted for - although let me tell you what happened and didn't even though I didn't see it. What a douche.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Yep, I agree. Although, after a second, he does move oddly. I've heard that sometimes when people are shot, it doesn't initially hurt and takes them a second to process it. Either way, those two guys closed in on him while the other officers remained in position for a fire fight. I have no training in law enforcement, so I admittedly have no clue if what those two guys did was or wasn't good strategy.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
That's what the girl says. Everything else she said that was said to be untrue has proven to be, well, true. Why do you doubt it?
Trying to milk it for some sympathy, or wanting the officers to discredit themselves, or even deliberately trying to make them do that, is not the kind of conspiracy you have with a culture of oligarchs and "all the Right People" who clamor for a seat at the table where the deals go down that can make or break a billionaire.
The Bundys of Mesquite and the Arizona Strip can't get in the Big Game, although McGeorge Bundys of Connecticut got in as a fellow-traveler with some Chump Change that he quickly lost to the real players.
Avery
Well-Known Member
Law enforcement will shoot every time someone is told to keep their hands up and they instead put their hands in their pocket/jacket - ask any cop and they'll tell you that.
Combined with his statements at the refuge as well as a book he wrote detailing an exchange in which the protagonist shoots and kills agents in a shootout, yeah, deadly force would have been authorized. If a black person would have ran from cops in Chicago, ran their car off the road and did this same thing, nobody would be talking about his being murdered or assassinated or any such nonsense. And you know it's true.
Combined with his statements at the refuge as well as a book he wrote detailing an exchange in which the protagonist shoots and kills agents in a shootout, yeah, deadly force would have been authorized. If a black person would have ran from cops in Chicago, ran their car off the road and did this same thing, nobody would be talking about his being murdered or assassinated or any such nonsense. And you know it's true.
I'm sorry but that is a load of crap. It blows up all the time when that happens and is debated endlessly. Both in society at large and here on Jazzfanz. Each case is different and I have seen several posters here express their disdain/disgust on cases where a black man has died over what looks like police brutality/excessive force/breaking policy...
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
I think that one implication of his post is that race does matter in how law enforcement treats subjects, as does it matter in how society reacts to such cases. I think that this is actually accurate. I would also add that it's not only race but socio-economic status that matters. A poor black girl from a poor inner-city abducted, for example, is probably less likely to get the same headlines and media hype as a pretty white girl from the suburbs with wealthy parents.
But I also think that things are changing. To a lesser extent now, I think,can police brutality against black citizens go unnoticed and unreported. It still happens, but in the current environment, and particularly with social media, it's much more likely to be publicized today than ever in the past and to spark outrage.
Would event have unfolded differently had Bundy and his fellow Heehawdists been, say, Black Militants? Perhaps, if forced to guess, I'd guess it would have. But in the end, I don't have much problem with how law enforcement handled it. Aside from the property damage, they allowed it to run out of steam and then took action when the stakes were much lower. What happened is, IMHO, much better outcome than any likely scenario had law enforcement stormed the Federal building at the beginning of the 'siege.'
That vehicle just didn't look like there as any damage to it. Also, why would they(police) fire without being fired upon first? Maybe they were.. Maybe the vehicle fired on police first.
At a traffic stop, what are the rules of engagement on approaching a vehicle that will likely contain armed, hostile individuals? Were they to be treating this as a routine traffic stop/checkpoint, or were they told to treat these people as a national threat(they DID forcibly occupy federal land) and not to provide them fair treatment?
Avery
Well-Known Member
Let me rephrase it as I actually agree with you that select groups of people would blow it up and make a mountain out of it.
What I should have said isn't that 'nobody' would have made an issue out of it, but the core group of people who are making a huge issue out of Lavoy's shooting (rural, largely white, likely conservative-leaning individuals) would have said he got what was coming to him. That's been the status quo for most of these shootings that have occurred the past few years.
OK, you are much more in line with JEJ and myself actually on this. I recently commented about all the 180s I saw on this specific case as compared to some of the high profile cases where a black man was killed. I have actually seen it both ways. Those that defend the black men, no matter the specifics, have been justifying this guys death. Some happily. And those that condemn all the black men killed in said cases, no matter what, have been saying it's murder and execution in this one.
Sad to see.