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150 Terrorists invade Oregon

Stoked we agree on more than we disagree. I think all our national parks, wildlife refuges, monuments, and conservation areas need to stay as is. They should be protected and money should be spent mango g and improving them. I do however believe there are federal lands not currently in those categories that are also important and should be left federally managed public lands. I don't want to see much public land turned over to the state or private hands. A state like Nevada I can see transferring or selling some, but not the majority of it. I also agree they need to punish Bundy and those who did what they did, including his father who continues to graze his private livestock for free on public land. They need to rein them in and prosecute them. They also need to start working with people more I agree. Here is a good article from a former BLM ranger who tells what he sees has changed:

https://www.hcn.org/issues/48.2/the-blms-arms-race-on-the-range
 
Stoked we agree on more than we disagree. I think all our national parks, wildlife refuges, monuments, and conservation areas need to stay as is. They should be protected and money should be spent mango g and improving them. I do however believe there are federal lands not currently in those categories that are also important and should be left federally managed public lands. I don't want to see much public land turned over to the state or private hands. A state like Nevada I can see transferring or selling some, but not the majority of it. I also agree they need to punish Bundy and those who did what they did, including his father who continues to graze his private livestock for free on public land. They need to rein them in and prosecute them. They also need to start working with people more I agree. Here is a good article from a former BLM ranger who tells what he sees has changed:

https://www.hcn.org/issues/48.2/the-blms-arms-race-on-the-range

I think we are fairly close on the issue as well. I do think that I lean a little more towards the protestors but we agree more often than not.
 
There's been so many people taken down by federal mismanagement across the West, there's hardly anyone in rural parts who can't tell some story of irrational and arrogant federal actions regarding the land that just makes no sense, and people needlessly bankrupted for what are viewed as trivial offenses. The Feds are losing credibility at ground zero, because of their policies, that even a supine uncritical progressive media owned by outright advocates of wildlife corridors and micromanaged communities determined to preach the new Gospel of Gaia cannot stop. The Fed managers, knowing all this, have committed to imposing their control and policies regardless of the supposedly ignorant but inarguably noncompliant locals.

It goes so hard against the ideals of American democracy I consider the Federal agencies to have 'Jumped the Shark' already. They are not going to take their time in the manner of progressive gradualism anymore. American democracy is no more. What we have is an ideologically cohesive oligarchy. If anyone just doesn't like it, they are going to get the boot once they are noticed. Anyone who makes their living off the land, like ranchers in the West have done for over a hundred years, is going to be bankrupted. We are going to have vast stretches of wildlife corridors, which will look like little strings or webs at first, connecting larger chunks of set asides, but the margins will be targeted and people forced out, one way or another.

The great Southern Longleaf Pines region will perhaps require more displacements that the Western Wildlife Corridor. People who are ranked as "The Right People" and who have status within the oligarchy will like Ted Turner and Jane Fonda have their ranches still, but anyone who isn't will be pushed out. David Rockefeller will still have his Adirondacks spread, and his Jackson Hole ranch, but he'll have fewer obnoxious neighbors. The people who live near them will be the ones who have jobs attending to the elite's lifestyle needs. Caretakers, security personnel, and other service "professionals".

The great Appalachian trail will be the Appalachian Valley. .. well, a swath of mountain lands. No more coal miner's daughters, no more corn liquor bootleggers, no more po' white trash, yo. This is national gentrification, doe.

What the oligarchs want, in perfect cohesion with the racist visions of Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood's moral foundations, is a good race war to burn out the useless eaters, black or white, whom Planet Earth or Goddess Gaia cannot bear to support anymore. What we need is some good solid wars in the Mideast to thin out the population there, too, according to geniuses like Zbigniew Brezinzski and others fantasy militarists.

A whole lot of people gotta go, according to the oligarchs. The King's Forest is the new "Manifest Destiny".
 
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When I was studying American History, unions were a significant part of America. They were the necessary resistance to the "Robber Barons" that forced the oligarchs to pay a living wage.

I have a little fairly close observation of current unions, and I call them "Fully Compromised" servants of Management.... well, the government unions are still piling on lavish benefits for the government employees. The Oligarchs really need a large force of managers for the kind of government they want, and they have to paid so much better than in the private sector they will do whatever they're told.

But by large scale terms, the international corporates by the nineties had fully broken the supposed "contract with labor" that gave us a large middle class of fairly well-paid corporate employees with good medical care, and good retirement packages. They pack up their factories and went to third world countries and built their production there, employing locals at much lower real wages while evading environmental issues like their smokestacks, fouled water, and community responsibilities. In the rhetoric they used, they were going for a world of equal prosperity, but the prosperity was theirs and the people got the crumbs that couldn't be avoided somehow. The ideals of human rights are still used rhetorically, but there is no longer a real legal framework wherein anyone but the oligarchs can win.

In my kind of ideals, principles of equality mean the little guy can stand on his rights and the government will stand for him. In the real world, even the oligarchs have got to pay attention to who the players are, who they are going up against, and who owns the judges, the legislature, and the government. You don't stand on rights, you carefully nurture privilege.

So, taking this idea of reality back to the Western Land issues the po' folk are beginning to express some frustration about, it's like this.

Anyone who is talking about an essential human privilege to access land or enjoy scenery, or imagine we have a "national treasure" in our Public Lands, just doesn't understand the reality of government ownership in the context of long-range plans for wilderness corridors, human population reductions, and other stated goals for planet earth being implemented by the Oligarchs, For the Oligarchs. You overestimate your significance, and are delusional in your sentiments.

What it really means is the end of American Democracy and American Constitutional Republic government.

You can only be fine with this if you imagine you are going to be well-paid as a government employee, or as at least a fringe beneficiary of oligarchal power.
 
So much of these issues come down to whether you believe the government is us or them. I'm underlining "is" here because I think lots of people misunderstand this idea as "represents."

The Bundys specifically seem to conceive of themselves as outside of the government, as an entity that is actively hostile towards them. It's not really a coincidence that their version of what the government should be substantially benefits them financially.

This is one of the reasons I think we do some basic statism things all wrong. We should celebrate the accomplishments that we all did together more than individual people. Take presidents and statesmen off our money. Make the $100 bill a picture of the lunar lander, $50 can be our shores of iwo jima image, $20 dudes throwing tea in boston harbor, $10 can be the Hollywood sign, $5 can be the Panama Canal, $1 can be the Model T Ford. Lets celebrate the things that collectively have made our country great and accomplished. That's what gets people into the idea of the state, of the people, actually being good together. Lots of countries have constitutions. Lots of countries have blowhard guys from centuries ago who said some crap that maybe makes sense now and maybe doesn't. Only we went to the moon, invented true mass entertainment, brought the world mass travel at affordable prices. If that's our focus, then it's clear we all own it. That's our heritage. And we don't have to fight over what Thomas Jefferson thought while he was banging the slaves.

/Pro-propagandist rant.
 
So much of these issues come down to whether you believe the government is us or them. I'm underlining "is" here because I think lots of people misunderstand this idea as "represents."

The Bundys specifically seem to conceive of themselves as outside of the government, as an entity that is actively hostile towards them. It's not really a coincidence that their version of what the government should be substantially benefits them financially.

This is one of the reasons I think we do some basic statism things all wrong. We should celebrate the accomplishments that we all did together more than individual people. Take presidents and statesmen off our money. Make the $100 bill a picture of the lunar lander, $50 can be our shores of iwo jima image, $20 dudes throwing tea in boston harbor, $10 can be the Hollywood sign, $5 can be the Panama Canal, $1 can be the Model T Ford. Lets celebrate the things that collectively have made our country great and accomplished. That's what gets people into the idea of the state, of the people, actually being good together. Lots of countries have constitutions. Lots of countries have blowhard guys from centuries ago who said some crap that maybe makes sense now and maybe doesn't. Only we went to the moon, invented true mass entertainment, brought the world mass travel at affordable prices. If that's our focus, then it's clear we all own it. That's our heritage. And we don't have to fight over what Thomas Jefferson thought while he was banging the slaves.

/Pro-propagandist rant.

Our country is growing ever more divided by the day. It is sad to see but how often to people break friendships or communication of who one supports in an election or their stance on an issue.

I see things like "if you support ***, then unfriend me now" on FB all the time. In growing regularity. I agree that we need to renew our focus on what unites us instead of what divides us.
 
So much of these issues come down to whether you believe the government is us or them. I'm underlining "is" here because I think lots of people misunderstand this idea as "represents."

The Bundys specifically seem to conceive of themselves as outside of the government, as an entity that is actively hostile towards them. It's not really a coincidence that their version of what the government should be substantially benefits them financially.

This is one of the reasons I think we do some basic statism things all wrong. We should celebrate the accomplishments that we all did together more than individual people. Take presidents and statesmen off our money. Make the $100 bill a picture of the lunar lander, $50 can be our shores of iwo jima image, $20 dudes throwing tea in boston harbor, $10 can be the Hollywood sign, $5 can be the Panama Canal, $1 can be the Model T Ford. Lets celebrate the things that collectively have made our country great and accomplished. That's what gets people into the idea of the state, of the people, actually being good together. Lots of countries have constitutions. Lots of countries have blowhard guys from centuries ago who said some crap that maybe makes sense now and maybe doesn't. Only we went to the moon, invented true mass entertainment, brought the world mass travel at affordable prices. If that's our focus, then it's clear we all own it. That's our heritage. And we don't have to fight over what Thomas Jefferson thought while he was banging the slaves.

/Pro-propagandist rant.

Our country is growing ever more divided by the day. It is sad to see but how often to people break friendships or communication of who one supports in an election or their stance on an issue.

I see things like "if you support ***, then unfriend me now" on FB all the time. In growing regularity. I agree that we need to renew our focus on what unites us instead of what divides us.
 
Going to pull a PKM.

The funeral for Mr. Finnicum will be in Kanab this Saturday. What I am hearing is that the Feds are attempting to confiscate his ranch, land and cattle. Not sure if that is true or not but I know people, extremely well, that will be at that funeral. They are up in arms and ready for bear.

If there are federal agents there it wouldn't surprise me to see it break out in a gun fight. Insane...
 
Going to pull a PKM.

The funeral for Mr. Finnicum will be in Kanab this Saturday. What I am hearing is that the Feds are attempting to confiscate his ranch, land and cattle. Not sure if that is true or not but I know people, extremely well, that will be at that funeral. They are up in arms and ready for bear.

If there are federal agents there it wouldn't surprise me to see it break out in a gun fight. Insane...

... shouldn't we be asking why they're confiscating the land before we load for bear?
 
... shouldn't we be asking why they're confiscating the land before we load for bear?

One would think. But at this point there are a bunch of people that would not be happy of anything short of complete and total capitulation by the BLM, FBI, OR governor and Burns Sherriff.

Also the funeral is Friday not Saturday. But I'm hearing calls for armed rebellion. Insane

I dropped the Patriot quote about our children learning about it with their own eyes on them as to why I hated that idea.
 
One would think. But at this point there are a bunch of people that would not be happy of anything short of complete and total capitulation by the BLM, FBI, OR governor and Burns Sherriff.

Also the funeral is Friday not Saturday. But I'm hearing calls for armed rebellion. Insane

I dropped the Patriot quote about our children learning about it with their own eyes on them as to why I hated that idea.

If there's a valid, legal reason to confiscate his land the only people up in arms are going to be other rednecks that look like they're only in it for their gain. They stand not a chance with the broader citizenry.

Also, is aboard spelled incorrectly in your sig on purpose? Can't believe it took me this long to notice
 
If there's a valid, legal reason to confiscate his land the only people up in arms are going to be other rednecks that look like they're only in it for their gain. They stand not a chance with the broader citizenry.

Also, is aboard spelled incorrectly in your sig on purpose? Can't believe it took me this long to notice

You're the only one to say something lol. I saw it right away but figured no one would notice.

Not everyone there has any financial gain from this issue. Some, sure but not all.

Why? I don't know but I can tell you that they do not care why. At all. They are spitting mad over his death which they consider cold blooded murder. Anything after that is just extra insult as far as they are concerned.

There is going to be the funeral than a protest afterwards.
 
You're the only one to say something lol. I saw it right away but figured no one would notice.

Not everyone there has any financial gain from this issue. Some, sure but not all.

Why? I don't know but I can tell you that they do not care why. At all. They are spitting mad over his death which they consider cold blooded murder. Anything after that is just extra insult as far as they are concerned.

There is going to be the funeral than a protest afterwards.

As was identified before, the world we live in can be very, very different. For you it probably feels like everyone wants the government to stop over-reach, as that's what you're surrounded by. For me, it feels like we're going to have some cowboys protesting because they're whiny bitches.
 
As was identified before, the world we live in can be very, very different. For you it probably feels like everyone wants the government to stop over-reach, as that's what you're surrounded by. For me, it feels like we're going to have some cowboys protesting because they're whiny bitches.

It does feel that way but I am smart enough to realize that neither is truly accurate.

It is far more than just cowboys but it is a far cry from a popular uprising.
 
How old was Finnicum? My father was from Kanab, pretty small town. Wonder if they knew each other.

My father's closest sibling (he was the 8th of 9 kids) married into the Bundy family. I used to spend a couple weeks every summer with my Bundy in-laws and one year we went with them to "Bundyville" for the Bundy family reunion.
 
Going to pull a PKM.

The funeral for Mr. Finnicum will be in Kanab this Saturday. What I am hearing is that the Feds are attempting to confiscate his ranch, land and cattle. Not sure if that is true or not but I know people, extremely well, that will be at that funeral. They are up in arms and ready for bear.

If there are federal agents there it wouldn't surprise me to see it break out in a gun fight. Insane...

So I talked to some ranchers I usually consider level-headed. . . . .

The word is Finnicum was shot nine times. After he put his hands up. Those movements of his arms. . . he had his hands up, and was shot, and instinctively grabbed at the wound, then put his hands up again, that sort of thing. Boy there is a lot of heat on this one.
 
How old was Finnicum? My father was from Kanab, pretty small town. Wonder if they knew each other.

My father's closest sibling (he was the 8th of 9 kids) married into the Bundy family. I used to spend a couple weeks every summer with my Bundy in-laws and one year we went with them to "Bundyville" for the Bundy family reunion.
Can I get a whoa Bundy?

#5touchdownsinonegame
#neverforget
 
Stoked we agree on more than we disagree. I think all our national parks, wildlife refuges, monuments, and conservation areas need to stay as is. They should be protected and money should be spent mango g and improving them. I do however believe there are federal lands not currently in those categories that are also important and should be left federally managed public lands. I don't want to see much public land turned over to the state or private hands. A state like Nevada I can see transferring or selling some, but not the majority of it. I also agree they need to punish Bundy and those who did what they did, including his father who continues to graze his private livestock for free on public land. They need to rein them in and prosecute them. They also need to start working with people more I agree. Here is a good article from a former BLM ranger who tells what he sees has changed:

https://www.hcn.org/issues/48.2/the-blms-arms-race-on-the-range

So we got where we are one step at a time, under a philosophy of government concentrating decisions at the top. It's been going on for over 150 years. People with big ideas of a future managed by the few really smart or wise visionaries for many years accepted the necessity of gradual change.

What has been the tipping point is the reality of treating owners of deeded "grazing rights" originating under a Federal policy that recognized them as a right traced back to the first one to make that use of the land is now a "grazing preference" with stipulations. When fees were first introduced, it was plainly stated that the fees would be used to improve fences, water, and the land to enhance grazing. Over the years, that reversed. You can't get the BLM or Forest Service to help with that anymore, and in fact they have been deliberate degrading those assets in the name of restoring wild land characteristics. People paid good money whenever those grazing rights were transferred, and the argument that grazers don't own the grazing use is going to be the flash point across the West. The management decisions that require reduced grazing use must be compensated as a "taking" of private property rights, or. . . well, I guess it's still business as usual ever since the Federal government got involved in land holdings in any way, like with the hundreds or thousands of treaties we've broken time and time again from our earliest dealings with the native Americans.

It's not "our" government if we're cut out of basic rights like "property", while the Rockefellers and Ted Turner draw maps of the country with vast wildlife corridors which will require somehow acquiring as cheapskate rates a lot of private land and pushing grazers out of the picture in those areas, without any compensation.

Western locals will never just shut down National Parks or anything else that is really a good use of the land with economic benefits like tourism or public access for recreation, nor will they really be OK with letting these resources be severely abused. I think ideas of conservation and preservation of scenic areas is here to stay. what is not here to stay is the idea that Western folks will accept being rounded up and herded into the Urban Corrals to the extent some Federal planners are intending. . . .
 
So much of these issues come down to whether you believe the government is us or them. I'm underlining "is" here because I think lots of people misunderstand this idea as "represents."

The Bundys specifically seem to conceive of themselves as outside of the government, as an entity that is actively hostile towards them. It's not really a coincidence that their version of what the government should be substantially benefits them financially.

This is one of the reasons I think we do some basic statism things all wrong. We should celebrate the accomplishments that we all did together more than individual people. Take presidents and statesmen off our money. Make the $100 bill a picture of the lunar lander, $50 can be our shores of iwo jima image, $20 dudes throwing tea in boston harbor, $10 can be the Hollywood sign, $5 can be the Panama Canal, $1 can be the Model T Ford. Lets celebrate the things that collectively have made our country great and accomplished. That's what gets people into the idea of the state, of the people, actually being good together. Lots of countries have constitutions. Lots of countries have blowhard guys from centuries ago who said some crap that maybe makes sense now and maybe doesn't. Only we went to the moon, invented true mass entertainment, brought the world mass travel at affordable prices. If that's our focus, then it's clear we all own it. That's our heritage. And we don't have to fight over what Thomas Jefferson thought while he was banging the slaves.

/Pro-propagandist rant.

Not too bad for a propagandist rant.

Thomas Jefferson loved his black mistress and her kids, and I think didn't really like "slavery", more of just following the norms of the farming business somewhat, imo. Wasn't he on the side of abolishing slavery? Washington had some slaves too, btw.

I think it's OK to recognize some particularly "American" Presidents, and I don't think that doing basic statism in a better way is progress, btw. The wonderful things we have done together consist, in my view and some others, in the accomplishment of creating an inherently limited government. I wouldn't go so far as to honor successful "collective" enterprizes aka Corporations as our pre=eminent achievements, though.

A $100 bill with "Chevron" or "General Motors" would be more appropriate for a country largely run by corporate interests, however. The idea that we the people have anything to do with it is just some kind of smoke and mirrors the corporate media blows up our arses continually. . . .

For me, the only way to break that hold is to reduce the power of government so it's not worthwhile to be corrupt.

/pro-individualist rant
 
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