The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Just a coincidence I’m sure
2020 Presidential election
- Thread starter gandalfe
- Start date
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Let’s not whitewash history now.
Bush II played as dirty of a campaign as I’ve ever seen against mccain in South Carolina. Remember? They claimed that he had fathered a black baby out of wedlock. He deceived the country into going to war. Sanctioned torture and black sites. Lied about John Kerry’s Vietnam record. Played the same cultural fault lines that trump currently does. He did nothing to advance women’s or LGBT’s rights. His indifference with Katrina was appalling. And really helped to animate this imperial presidency that we have today.
True, he isn’t a malignant narcissist, like trump. His stance towards immigrants was admirable. His efforts to vaccinate Africa and improve health care on that continent were real accomplishments. His handling of the financial crisis was good. His daughters were unfairly attacked by the media. I liked Laura Bush. His education reforms weren’t horrible. But W wasn’t a saint. He had glaring intellectual and moral failings. His Vice President was a piece Of ****. The last two Republican presidents are probably 2/3 of the worst presidents we’ve ever had. Johnson and perhaps Buchanon could make an argument... maybe. But Bush and Trump are off the charts horrible as the Republican electorate has become increasingly extreme and hostile to democracy.
Last edited:
most of your post is about policy. In response to my post about character. There is a difference.
Beer
Well-Known Member
Lol no. Dem's who don't actually pay attention to politics or pay attention to the news are cool with Biden.
I've always heard Ulysses S Grant was a massive disaster as president.
Sent from my SM-G973U using JazzFanz mobile app
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
not really. Re-read the first paragraph
Beer
Well-Known Member
No, you can be a moderate and have a clue what is going on.
You can cherry pick bad things from any Prez.
Brown baby: that was amoral win at all costs play that played to the racists, I agree (I was a McCain supporter)
- Deceived into war? Your opinion. Did he lie or did he believed they had WMD? Pretty strong evidence that he believed it to be true.
- Torture? Sure, wrong, I agree, but his view was that he was doing it to destroy terrorism., so there was a moral tradeoff. My opinion, he was wrong, not amoral
- Kerry swift boat lies? Misleading and wrong, but on par for politics as usual
- Cultural fault lines as Trump? Terrible comparison. Trump is 1,000,000X worse.
- LGBT rights? Remember, Obama was against gay marriage. Could he have done better on policy? sure. Does this make him amoral? If so, Kennedy and Johnson were equally amorals
- Katrina indifference? your opinion. The optics were terrible, the response was terrible. You were not inside his head so have no basis to say he was indifferent to death and suffering, just your opinion.
I believe Bush is a decent human being who did his best but was an inept Prez. I doubt the Bush's and Obamas would be so close if Obama felt he was as morally deficient as you profess.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Lying about a political opponent fathering an illegitimate black baby, Torture for any reason, and deceiving a country into war isn't amoral. Like, that’s the very definition of immoral. There’s no moral case for torture. None.
You may have missed that I agreed about the brown baby thing.
And that I agree with you that torture is always wrong.
However, the morality of torture in extreme cases has been debated for centuries by ethicists and philosophers, so maybe it is not as black and white as you believe.
Your loved one is about to be killed and you have a person who has information to find her. What do you do, polite conversation? If you waterboard him and find your loved one, were you justified to do so?
Nuke somewhere in New York City will go off in an hour. You capture the perp. What do you do? Pretty please, with sugar on top?
We basically agree on torture, but I wanted to point out that torture is also very ineffective at getting accurate information. So even in these extreme situations, it's a poor choice even before you consider the morality.
I agree 100%
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
With some people there is no grey, it's all black and white. Well...it's all black and white for the "side" they don't like.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
So I at least found this interesting, discussion wise. Curious to other people's thoughts.
Based on current testimony, and Title IX, most likely both Joe Biden and Kavanaugh would have been kicked out of college. We have seen quite a few examples of this across the country, sometimes with people later being re-admitted.
Obviously Kavanaugh still kept his appointment, and it looks like Biden will keep his nomination.
So which response is the most correct?
Based on current testimony, and Title IX, most likely both Joe Biden and Kavanaugh would have been kicked out of college. We have seen quite a few examples of this across the country, sometimes with people later being re-admitted.
Obviously Kavanaugh still kept his appointment, and it looks like Biden will keep his nomination.
So which response is the most correct?
I agree with Betsy DeVoss. I will never utter these words again. I’m a feminist 100%, but the truth needs to be determined and must be the basis for any action. We need to listen to every woman’s complaint, take every one seriously, and then seek truth.
Biden/Kavanaugh - I don't really believe the story on Biden, and kind of did on Kavanaugh, but generally agree that there wasn't near enough evidence for any sort of punishment to be passed down in either case. Support reasonable investigations of either/both. I thought Kavanaugh had/has other issues that put me pretty firmly against him as a supreme court justice. And am of course pretty bummed Biden will win the Dem nomination, though will likely be voting for him come November.