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Sloanfeld said:
Ahhhhh, I stil remember all of the fools at the start of the season who kept saying that this season's Jazz was better than last season's. I told you that record was not an accurate measuring tool for this type of thing. You didn't listen, AGAIN.

I'm right in both arguments here. Let's review for newcomers, and to point out people's foolishness.

My argument was:

You can't use record to measure this because the Jazz played average for half of last season, and elite ball for the second half.

The delusional, Boozer hating morons argument:


Youre clueless

Jazz have a better record at this point in the season, so we are better than last season's team!!!!


What's funny about my argument is that the reverse happened this year (good start, bad finish), but the blind fools chose to ignore what happened the previous season, as I had warned them, and didn't realize it until the losses started piling up.

So what can we conclude from all of this?

1. I'm always right

2. Delusional, Boozer hating (#1 seed, best defensive team in the league) morons are always wrong

3. You know what three is, Sloanfidels
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you are clueless kiddo
 
Sloanfailed relys on partial truths and picks and chooses certain stats that help him puff up his argument and he will continue to do so until the end of time. No use arguing with him on anything.

As for me, I still like the Jefferson move and think it will continue to pay dividends for the Jazz in coming seasons. I think where Utah made their 2 biggest mistakes of the offseason were Wes Matthews and Kyle Korver. If the Jazz retain those 2 while still basically trading Boozer for Jefferson, I think this season turns out drastically different. D-Will is probably happier, thus not as much bickering with Sloan, Wes Matthews fills the SG position and we don't sign Raja Bell who gave us nothing all year long and Kyle Korver is knocking down more 3's than ever thanks to Big Al drawing more of the defense into the post.

Let me add that while that scenario probably gets us into the playoffs and keeps the Sloan era intact (for now), it probably would have been fools gold. D-Will was still most likely going to bolt at the end of his contract and we probably don't get anything for him in return. This means rebuilding anyway, but doing it with far less assets than the Jazz have now.

Sure, I guess people who are short-sighted or are hellbent on winning an argument will look at the Bulls success and Jazz's failures and try to simplify Boozer as the main factor in that equation but any competent person simply knows that it's not even close to being as simple as that.
 
Luol Deng is the reason that the Bulls had the best record in the east. He was their most consistent and least talked about player. He filled in when Boozer and Noah were out. This was his healthiest season in a while and he showed why he is probably the 2nd most valuable player on that team.
 
Sloany my friend, I am one of the folks on this board who believes Booz is better than Jeff and Sap. I think you have made some legit points about Booz in the past. I have to add that I probably prefer Jeff for one reason and that is the injury issue. But we do agree on the talent equation. However, you have zero credibility making ludicrous comparisons to this year and last given the trade, Sloan, etc etc. It makes everything you say suspect.
 
Final PER.

Jefferson 20.20 - 82 games played
Millsap 19.83 - 76 games played
Bozo 18.90 - 59 games played

One more time, just for emphasis.
 
jazzman12 said:
I think where Utah made their 2 biggest mistakes of the offseason were Wes Matthews and Kyle Korver. If the Jazz retain those 2 while still basically trading Boozer for Jefferson, I think this season turns out drastically different. D-Will is probably happier, thus not as much bickering with Sloan, Wes Matthews fills the SG position and we don't sign Raja Bell who gave us nothing all year long and Kyle Korver is knocking down more 3's than ever thanks to Big Al drawing more of the defense into the post.
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Although I agree with this, Utah just isn't a team that can afford to spend like Cuban. We had the 5th highest payroll in the league, and if my #s are right, keeping Wes and Korver minus bell would have put us at just under 84,000,000. That means 14 million in luxury tax. Utah is never gonna pay that.

jazzman12 said:
Let me add that while that scenario probably gets us into the playoffs and keeps the Sloan era intact (for now), it probably would have been fools gold. D-Will was still most likely going to bolt at the end of his contract and we probably don't get anything for him in return. This means rebuilding anyway, but doing it with far less assets than the Jazz have now.
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As much as I wanted to believe Deron would have stayed had we been in the top half of the west, I think this is probably true. Good post.
 
Revolution 9 said:
Sloaned in his own thread....ouch!
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This is pretty standard actually. He starts strong then gets bogged down when trivial things like facts get in the way, then he bails out. It does make him entertaining though.
 
twentytwo said:
Final PER.

Jefferson 20.20 - 82 games played
Millsap 19.83 - 76 games played
Bozo 18.90 - 59 games played

One more time, just for emphasis.
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The telling stat really. Also the reason the Bulls were so good defensively; their defensive liability took enough games off to boost their defensive rating.
 
Scorpjazz said:
Bulls did well without Boozer when he was hurt. Nuf said. Wait, not enuf said. When the Jazz had Boozer, they aslso did well without him. Great stats, doesnt affect winning or losing too much. That is Noah and Rose's job. Just reality. Boozer doesnt suck. But he is a 2nd or 3rd, at best option, and not a deal breaker for any team to do well.
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Spot on.
 
NotDeadYet said:
LOL; the media still loves Boozer; camereaman couldn't take his camera off Boozer on the bench during timeouts tonite...
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They have pools going on how many zits he has, so they had to count. It takes a freaking long time.
 
freakazoid said:
Although I agree with this, Utah just isn't a team that can afford to spend like Cuban. We had the 5th highest payroll in the league, and if my #s are right, keeping Wes and Korver minus bell would have put us at just under 84,000,000. That means 14 million in luxury tax. Utah is never gonna pay that.
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Totally agree with Cuban comparison. However, if I remember the numbers (and I might be way off) on Matthew's offer sheet, I don't think it was too out of line with the money the Jazz ended up giving Bell for the next 3 years. Korver was a goner regardless. It would have been nice to keep him, but as you said, it's not like we have a billionaire for an owner who can pay high amounts of luxury tax year in and year out.
 
Boozer is a good ball player. Had he been surrounded with guys who could play defense Utah would have been better off. Had he been less injury-prone Utah would have been better off. Without the proper pieces around him he couldn't flourish as well here, and for that reason I am glad he's gone.
 
jazzman12 said:
However, if I remember the numbers (and I might be way off) on Matthew's offer sheet, I don't think it was too out of line with the money the Jazz ended up giving Bell for the next 3 years.
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Matthew's offer sheet was for the full mid level (around $5.5 million) for 5 years with a huge payout up front. Raja is getting $3 million for 3 years. Thats a lot of money IMO. esp since the huge hit up front would have been doubled because of the tax. Wes is a great player and I really like him. But I still don't think he is worth the contract he got. Unless Roy is traded (or his knees completely give out) or he keep improving. (I think he is near his peak)
 
jazzman12 said:
if I remember the numbers (and I might be way off) on Matthew's offer sheet, I don't think it was too out of line with the money the Jazz ended up giving Bell for the next 3 years. Korver was a goner regardless. It would have been nice to keep him, but as you said, it's not like we have a billionaire for an owner who can pay high amounts of luxury tax year in and year out.
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This year = $5,765,000 for Wes compared to $3,000,000 for Bell. Almost double, but with the luxury of hindsight, I think it's a no brainer that Wes would have been worth it. Just the same, I don't remember a single Jazz fan who thought we should match. In fact, I was surprised at how many people were buying into the conspiracy theory that Portland didn't really want him, they were just trying to screw the Jazz. I also remember a fair amount of fans who thought we shouldn't match Millsap because Portland was just trying to screw us. Looking back, Portland knew exactly what they were doing, and ended up 1 for 2.

As for Korver, he's getting $5,000,000 a year for the next 3. Again, I'd prefer that over Bell(I'd also prefer a tabasco *****), but Korver may have left for Chicago even if we did want to pay that. Obviously though, there was no way we could've kept Wes and Korver.
 
Ben10 said:
Matthew's offer sheet was for the full mid level (around $5.5 million) for 5 years with a huge payout up front. Raja is getting $3 million for 3 years. Thats a lot of money IMO. esp since the huge hit up front would have been doubled because of the tax. Wes is a great player and I really like him. But I still don't think he is worth the contract he got.
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Wes is averaging about 16 PPG in 33.6 MPG on .449 FG% and .407% from 3 with 1.2 steals. He's a legitimate starter in this league. I think Utah would be thrilled to have a starting 2 guard with those numbers at that price. Utah passed on him last year assuming he'd be a backup.

As far as the huge payout up front, you do have a point. I think it was an extra 5 million(can't find it). Utah had no way to see into the future, and financial concerns were huge. I still support the decision based on the circumstances at the time, but with what we know now, matching Wes and sacrificing somewhere else would have been a good option IMO.


- Signed Captain Hindsight
 
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Utah never assumed he was a back up. The Matthews deal was also front end loaded so the luxury tax hit was more than double what they gave Raja. Still wish he was here but no way was he viewed as anything but a starter.
 
freakazoid said:
Wes is averaging about 16 PPG in 33.6 MPG on .449 FG% and .407% from 3 with 1.2 steals. He's a legitimate starter in this league. I think Utah would be thrilled to have a starting 2 guard with those numbers at that price. but with what we know now, matching Wes and sacrificing somewhere else would have been a good option IMO.


- Signed Captain Hindsight
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Yeah and we could have drafted Jefferson and Josh Smith to. Hindsight is exactly that, already gone. At the time almost every GM in the league thought that offer sheet to Wes was ridiculous. And I agreed with them.
If you had the same choice right now after you know how it turns out I would sign Wes to the contract in a second. But we didn't know that then.
 
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