9/11/2010 Burn a Koran Day

[sirkickyass]

It's considered sacred. It's asked not to be shared and depicted for respect of those who believe and find the ceremonies sacred.

That's the short answer.

That's also an answer that doesn't say anything. Let's phrase it a little more obviously: why is the act of filming a simulation of a temple ceremony (i.e. not an actual ceremony) offensive? Is it really that upsetting that someone who's not of the faith knows what happens inside the temple? They still can't participate in the actual ceremony nor are they able to view the ceremony itself being carried out in the particular place of worship.

Saying it's sacred isn't really an answer, it's a conclusion. I want to know specifically why the simulated depiction of a ceremony is so offensive. Even better would be a defense of why it's a "million times more offensive" than burning the book of Mormon. That comparative claim is interesting to me given that the latter is at least representative of the physical and metaphorical destruction of the religion and its ideas.

I regard the idea that Big Love should be constrained from simulating the ceremony (which, having seen the episode in question, there were valid artistic reasons for doing so) as just as ridiculous as South Park being prevented from depicting Muhammed.

 

[Archie Moses]

That's also an answer that doesn't say anything. Let's phrase it a little more obviously: why is the act of filming a simulation of a temple ceremony (i.e. not an actual ceremony) offensive? Is it really that upsetting that someone who's not of the faith knows what happens inside the temple? They still can't participate in the actual ceremony nor are they able to view the ceremony itself being carried out in the particular place of worship.

Saying it's sacred isn't really an answer, it's a conclusion. I want to know specifically why the simulated depiction of a ceremony is so offensive. Even better would be a defense of why it's a "million times more offensive" than burning the book of Mormon. That comparative claim is interesting to me given that the latter is at least representative of the physical and metaphorical destruction of the religion and its ideas.

I regard the idea that Big Love should be constrained from simulating the ceremony (which, having seen the episode in question, there were valid artistic reasons for doing so) as just as ridiculous as South Park being prevented from depicting Muhammed.

You want to know specifics? How bout this. Mormons believe temple ceremonies should not be depicted outside of the temple because God said so.

 

[One Brow]

Isn't every Christian insulted when a bible is burned regardless of why? Or every American when a the US flag is burned regardless of why?

The insult is there, but not everyone is offended.

YB85 did not say every Muslim would be offended.

Yes, I think it would.

Then you are kidding yourself.

 

[Archie Moses]

YB85 did not say every Muslim would be offended.

You're right. I never said he did either.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Isn't every Christian insulted when a bible is burned regardless of why? Or every American when a the US flag is burned regardless of why?

The insult is there, but not everyone is offended.

I'm certainly not. I'll admit that I actually tend to always think We probably deserve this whenever I see some Middle Eastern dude burning our flag on tv.

 

[sirkickyass]

You want to know specifics? How bout this. Mormons believe temple ceremonies should not be depicted outside of the temple because God said so.

Actually that's not as clean cut as you might think even from the perspective of Mormonism. My understanding is that certain signs or tokens are considered sacred and should be kept "secret from the world." That's not the same thing as saying the entire ceremony is unknowable.

Similarly, my copy of McConkie says this: "Certain gospel ordinances are of such a sacred and holy nature that the Lord authorizes their performance only in holy sanctuaries prepared and dedicated for that purpose." That certainly leaves room for interpretation about the gap between actual performance of the ceremony and simulation of said ceremony because the Big Love cast members did not actually perform the ceremony (none of them had the power to do so.)

However your response also begs another question entirely: Let's say I'm not Mormon, should I refrain from doing everything that the Mormon church says God has commanded me not to do so that I won't cause offense to its members? Certainly you wouldn't argue that my drinking coffee or failing to pay my tithing to the church is offensive to you personally, so there has to be something different about the Temple ceremony depiction.

 

[Scat]

Then you are kidding yourself.

Likewise.

Right now Iran is the de facto leader of the Islamic world. Since their country/government is so closely intertwined with the religion I think many other countries would see it as an attack on the religion itself. And if they didn't, you can be sure that Iran would whip them up as quickly as possible by stating they were attacked because of their religious beliefs and blame it on Israel/the U.S. as being anti-Islamic zionists on a crusade to destroy Islam.

 

[GVC]

Right now Iran is the de facto leader of the Islamic nations.

oh my.

 

[Scat]

oh my.

They are the most vocal. They are the most military minded. They are supplying all Mid East terrorist groups with weapons with maybe the exception of Saudi Arabia. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Iran has their fingers in much of indonesia. Don't kid yorself, Iran is more influential in the Islamic world than you are giving them credit for.

 

[GVC]

They are the most vocal. They are the most military minded. They are supplying all Mid East terrorist groups with weapons with maybe the exception of Saudi Arabia. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Iran has their fingers in much of indonesia. Don't kid yorself, Iran is more influential in the Islamic world than you are giving them credit for.

Influential in the Islamic world or influential among Islamic terrorists? The two are not the same.

Think.

If you are able, that is.

Iran = Indo-European (non-Arab), Shia. Doesn't seem to me that they would have much clout AT ALL in the Muslim World (they don't).

 

[TroutBum]

Influential in the Islamic world or influential among Islamic terrorists? The two are not the same.

Think.

If you are able, that is.

Iran = Indo-European (non-Arab), Shia. Doesn't seem to me that they would have much clout AT ALL in the Muslim World (they don't).

iawtp



(not because I know anything about this crap, but Elder Camp usually does)

 

[YB85]

They are the most vocal. They are the most military minded. They are supplying all Mid East terrorist groups with weapons with maybe the exception of Saudi Arabia. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Iran has their fingers in much of indonesia. Don't kid yorself, Iran is more influential in the Islamic world than you are giving them credit for.

You forgot to include "they are mostly Shi'ite."

 

[C l u t c H 385]

I'm certainly not. I'll admit that I actually tend to always think We probably deserve this whenever I see some Middle Eastern dude burning our flag on tv.

pansy.

 

[Scat]

Influential in the Islamic world or influential among Islamic terrorists? The two are not the same.

Think.

If you are able, that is.

Iran = Indo-European (non-Arab), Shia. Doesn't seem to me that they would have much clout AT ALL in the Muslim World (they don't).

You forgot to include "they are mostly Shi'ite."

That's like saying Catholics, Baptists and Mormons wouldn't ban together to fight gay marriage.

 

[YB85]

That's like saying Catholics, Baptists and Mormons wouldn't ban together to fight gay marriage.

No, it's like saying that Baptists or Mormons are the de facto leaders of the Christian world.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Who would burn a Bible?

You don't mess with the Jesus.

Man.

 

[DeliveryBoy]

I know they don't count as "real Americans," but I wish the pro-Koran burners would realize that there are many, many Muslim American citizens too.

 

[Beantown]

However your response also begs another question entirely: Let's say I'm not Mormon, should I refrain from doing everything that the Mormon church says God has commanded me not to do so that I won't cause offense to its members? Certainly you wouldn't argue that my drinking coffee or failing to pay my tithing to the church is offensive to you personally, so there has to be something different about the Temple ceremony depiction.

Its something we find disrespectful. Drinking coffee or smoking doesnt disrepect me. But if you did it during my daughters baptism at church it would offend me. Big Love went out of their way to depict the temple ceremony on tv. They spent time on it. The funny thing is the FLDS does not even participate in the same temple ceremony that was depicted. They mixed our church with theirs. Atleast get it right if you are going to spend the time an money on it.

 

[Revolution 9]

As opposed to all the American flags and presidents burned in effigy that I've seen over the years?

The hypocrisy of the Islamic world in this regard is mind boggling. Their response to even hearing that a koran might be burned is to trample a US flag on the ground, call for the death of America and then burn the flag. I'm at a loss to see how there is much difference.

The Islamic world? You mean the extremists? The Islamic world in general condemns extreme actions, the same as we do.

The extremists of every belief try and pit people and ideas against each other. Don't get sucked into their hatred.

Are there hypocrites in the Muslim Islamic world? Of course. Doesn't mean we can just say "well those people over there who do stupid things, so we will too!".
Don't let the loudest voices speak for everyone. If you don't do the right thing(as hard as it may be sometimes), then you are no better than anyone.

 

[sirkickyass]

Its something we find disrespectful. Drinking coffee or smoking doesnt disrepect me. But if you did it during my daughters baptism at church it would offend me. Big Love went out of their way to depict the temple ceremony on tv. They spent time on it. The funny thing is the FLDS does not even participate in the same temple ceremony that was depicted. They mixed our church with theirs. Atleast get it right if you are going to spend the time an money on it.

From this post it is obvious that you did not see the episode in question.

The plot at the time revolved around one character being excommunicated from the mainstream LDS church because of her practice of plural marriage. This particular character was raised in the LDS church and went along with her husband's desire to "live the principle" of plural marriage when she was deathly ill and did not believe she was going to survive long in the plural marriage community. As a result, a formal action to remove her from her upbringing in the church deeply affects her.

She uses her sister's temple recommend to particpate in the endowment ceremony and spend time in the celestial room with her mother. It's a final chapter of any tie between her and the mainstream LDS church and one of the few times we see her and her mother in a non-conflict based scenario.

To say that the show mixed the FLDS church with the LDS church is patently inaccurate, as the distinction was the central plot arc of the episode. The show also had significant thematic and artistic reasons for depicting a simulation of the ceremony and a conversation inside the Celestial room and there was no plausible alternative to get to the same ground.

In sum, you have no clue what you're talking about and are just parroting something someone told you about the show.

In any event, feel free to answer any of my questions regarding the differences between simulations and actual performances or why it is offensive. Merely stating that it is offensive is not an answer.