The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but what exactly are you insinuating? Please clarify.
Adios to The Mooch
- Thread starter BabyPeterzz
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I'm sorry, but what exactly are you insinuating? Please clarify.
I am going to have to disagree. I am not defending him as much as I am disagreeing with your stance. There is no viable proof other than his erratic behavior. He is what he is and I think we would generally be in agreement on his personality flaws/characteristics. But it is used as a political argument IMO. We have no proof, being "obvious" isn't proof of anything.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
I'm going to disagree with your disagreement haha. I think he gives us proof of his delusions every single day with 140 characters or less.
You can call or believe him unfit as much as you want. Thinking someone is unfit for a certain office is not the same as saying they're mentally ill. They can do things you disagree with -- they can even do things you think are crazy -- but that still doesn't equate to mental illness.
The Goldwater Rule is not just a gagball to prevent people from speaking about public figures, but specifically to not render a professional opinion on someone that somebody hasn't actually evaluated because it can't be done appropriately from a distance. In a lot of ways it's a self-protection for the field of psychiatry to prevent the inappropriate application and abuse of psychiatry for ulterior purposes, as has been demonstrated in the past and as society has largely rejected (but at other points selectively embraced such as this).
Your claim that Trump is mentally ill vs. being someone you disagree vehemently with. Being an ******* doesn't equate to mental illness. Being narcissistic does not equate to mental illness. Being impulsive and erratic does not mean one is mentally ill. Do you view mental illness as exclusion criteria for high office? Is labeling someone mentally ill an appropriate slur for you to discredit a foe, and is the means of further stigmatization of a disenfranchised group of individuals a worthy sacrifice for your political ends?
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
YES! Absolutely! Are we really having this discussion?
What a weird claim. I disagree with Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. It's well known that I disagree with much of the GOP establishment and propaganda machine. Can you cite another politician who I've labeled as mentally ill for having different political views? If not, then you shouldn't claim that I label those who I disagree with as mentally ill. Thanks bud!
Are you sure you aren't overlooking Trump's mental illness for some reason?
"Mentally ill" is a pretty big umbrella. I certainly would not consider it an exclusion to high office in and of itself.
I agree that it is inappropriate to speculate as to the mental health of Trump. Especially in regard specific diagnosis.
I'd rather just point to his complete incompetence. Then to his legal issues that may require he leave office before his term ends. Then to my disagreements with his policies. Then to his horrible manners.
I agree that it is inappropriate to speculate as to the mental health of Trump. Especially in regard specific diagnosis.
I'd rather just point to his complete incompetence. Then to his legal issues that may require he leave office before his term ends. Then to my disagreements with his policies. Then to his horrible manners.
I basically agree with your logical system of priorities here. Thank you for not just piling on this bandwagon.
Personal manners are always a bit open to opinion or feelings. people will have a fair range of impressions for the same item, sometimes. Trump can, apparently, be charming to many when he wants to be. For example, cracking jokes about how to thump a drug dealer on the paddy wagon roof while loading him up, can get a laugh from someone who has been too damn scared of being sued or fired to take appropriate action in detaining a dangerous criminal, and been himself/herself injured as a result. But most of us who are not in law enforcement feel such talk is rude, crass, dangerous and outright insane. I might not have seen his "joke" as exactly the way Hitler might have "joked" about pushing Jews into the gas chambers. But I can see the way some would.
His policies, competence, and his lawfulness in any specific respect can all be discussed civilly, and we all have the basic sense to have our opinions. Maybe we don't have all the relevant facts or the expertise to lodge persuasive comments.
As I understand professional standards as they reflect on the idea that Trump is not mentally fit, it is unprofessional to speculate or offer a diagnosis without performing a competent evaluation of the patient.
I often offer the diagnosis that some politician is "sociopathic" or "psychopathic", but I'm not a competent professional. I use the meaning rhetorically to describe a mind that is out of the normal range of inhibition/constraint in regard to caring about others, to the effect of being coldly calculating for personal power and control, or willing to deliberately injure others.
Trump looks rational to me. He is in fact cut off by his opponents in certain respects, he is in fact a target of his opposition. He has trouble finding people to work with who will not deliberately undermine him, particularly when he calls upon members of the former establishment, hoping to win some cooperation.
I think he actually cares about this country, and about other countries as well. He looks for ways to "win" where others will feel glad to work with him. "Win-win deals".
I think his opponents would do very well in advancing their concerns if they sought to make some kind of reconciliation. Their concerns would need only to appear reasonable. Trump is not a ideological conservative. He may not really understand the Constitution, but he does know when people are working with him. Or not.
Red
Well-Known Member
Psychotherapists have both spoken out against adhering to the "Goldwater Rule" in the case of Donald Trump, the ethical guideline which "prohibits" mental health professionals from diagnosing individuals without a personal doctor/patient relationship, while others have felt the Goldwater Rule must be adhered to. Among the first to be willing to state publically that Trump exhibited symptoms of a personality disorder was John D. Gartner, a psychotherapist at the John Hopkins University Medical School, who was willing to state that Trump exhibited "malignant narcissism:
http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/01...ases-terrifying-diagnosis-of-president-trump/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...ent-trump-exhibits-traits-m-article-1.2957688
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/2/13/14581542/trump-mentally-ill-diagnosis
Gartner started a petition on change.org, signed by mental health professionals, calling for the removal of Trump from office:
https://www.change.org/p/trump-is-mentally-ill-and-must-be-removed
This petition has received just under 60,000 signatures to date.
In addition, shortly after the election, a group was formed by American psychotherapists, and known as "Citizen Therapists Against Trumpism". This group issued a "Public Manifesto":
https://citizentherapists.com/manifesto/
However, American psychiatrist Allen Frances has spoken out strongly on what some might call armchair diagnosis:
"The Psychiatrist Who Wrote the Guide to Personality Disorders Says Diagnosing Trump is 'Bull****':
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../trump-mental-health-narcissistic-personality
"Allen Frances is a psychiatrist who wrote the rules for diagnosing personality disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The DSM is the No. 1 tool mental health professionals have for making diagnoses.
Frances, a professor emeritus at Duke, doesn’t mince words about what he thinks of mental health professionals who are now using the DSM to diagnose President Donald Trump with a mental disorder. “What’s going on is bull****,” he says."
Anyway, those are some of the pro and con arguments. A personal observation. Lying is not a mental illness, but this President does seem to, call it "sling the bull" an awful lot. Recall that last week, Trump gave a speech at the Boy Scout Jamboree that resulted in an apology from the national director of the Boy Scouts of America. But Trump, in an interview with the Wall Street Journal, claims the head of the Boy Scouts called him and told him it was "the greatest speech ever given" to the Boy Scouts. And, no surprise, the Boy Scouts are saying no such thing was ever told to Trump:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-scouts-disputes-trumps-greatest-ever-claim-about-his-speech/
So, lying is not a mental illness. But, at least from everything I've seen and heard over the last 2 years, Trump is like the boy who cried wolf, IMHO. I just have no reason to believe anything he says, and it's because he slings it fast and often. He's taken "slinging it" to heights I've never seen in any President. I don't think that's normal, but I'm no shrink.
In any event, I just wanted to post different opinions on the issue of his mental health and reaction from mental health professionals on whether the Goldwater Rule must be adhered to in his case.
http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/01...ases-terrifying-diagnosis-of-president-trump/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...ent-trump-exhibits-traits-m-article-1.2957688
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/2/13/14581542/trump-mentally-ill-diagnosis
Gartner started a petition on change.org, signed by mental health professionals, calling for the removal of Trump from office:
https://www.change.org/p/trump-is-mentally-ill-and-must-be-removed
This petition has received just under 60,000 signatures to date.
In addition, shortly after the election, a group was formed by American psychotherapists, and known as "Citizen Therapists Against Trumpism". This group issued a "Public Manifesto":
https://citizentherapists.com/manifesto/
However, American psychiatrist Allen Frances has spoken out strongly on what some might call armchair diagnosis:
"The Psychiatrist Who Wrote the Guide to Personality Disorders Says Diagnosing Trump is 'Bull****':
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../trump-mental-health-narcissistic-personality
"Allen Frances is a psychiatrist who wrote the rules for diagnosing personality disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The DSM is the No. 1 tool mental health professionals have for making diagnoses.
Frances, a professor emeritus at Duke, doesn’t mince words about what he thinks of mental health professionals who are now using the DSM to diagnose President Donald Trump with a mental disorder. “What’s going on is bull****,” he says."
Anyway, those are some of the pro and con arguments. A personal observation. Lying is not a mental illness, but this President does seem to, call it "sling the bull" an awful lot. Recall that last week, Trump gave a speech at the Boy Scout Jamboree that resulted in an apology from the national director of the Boy Scouts of America. But Trump, in an interview with the Wall Street Journal, claims the head of the Boy Scouts called him and told him it was "the greatest speech ever given" to the Boy Scouts. And, no surprise, the Boy Scouts are saying no such thing was ever told to Trump:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-scouts-disputes-trumps-greatest-ever-claim-about-his-speech/
So, lying is not a mental illness. But, at least from everything I've seen and heard over the last 2 years, Trump is like the boy who cried wolf, IMHO. I just have no reason to believe anything he says, and it's because he slings it fast and often. He's taken "slinging it" to heights I've never seen in any President. I don't think that's normal, but I'm no shrink.
In any event, I just wanted to post different opinions on the issue of his mental health and reaction from mental health professionals on whether the Goldwater Rule must be adhered to in his case.
That is actually a pretty good and well-balanced product, Red.
I might not like an organized campaign that uses every possible far-fetched assertion in the rush to stampede the American public into ditching Trump, and I might think there is more crap being slung at him than he could possibly throw back, but any effort to introduce reasoned thinking into the discussion is welcome.
I might not like an organized campaign that uses every possible far-fetched assertion in the rush to stampede the American public into ditching Trump, and I might think there is more crap being slung at him than he could possibly throw back, but any effort to introduce reasoned thinking into the discussion is welcome.
Cappy_Smurf
Well-Known Member
Instead of calling Trump mentally ill, would it be considered appropriate to call him a complete and total pile of ****?
I'm not sure, as this may be an insult to piles of **** and therefore somewhat insensitive.
I'm not sure, as this may be an insult to piles of **** and therefore somewhat insensitive.