FalseFlagg K
Well-Known Member
the bottom line is that meat is delicious, mouthwatering murder ...mmmmmm
Al Jefferson is Vegan!
- Thread starter Saint Cy of JFC
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No, you clearly don't know how B12 is made these days to add in to foods. It's from bacteria. It's fairly easy to make and in fact is a better source if it because it is more pure the way it is made now and fortified in food. Maybe you should do a little research on it.
You are reaching again with Omega 3. It's abundant in other ways than fish. It's very abundant in sources that are vegan.
You have yet to prove a single point in this thread. Your main argument is just saying the word evolution.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
I am a partial Vegan. Does that count? I go about 5-6 days of the week eating nothing but raw vegan. I dont cook anything during that time.
I haven't gone full Vegan because I dont want to give up meat products totally just yet, but I can tell a big difference in how I feel from raw Vegan, and it just makes sense that its better for you.
There are a lot of studies out that point to meat causing cancer. I think its wise that you dont eat too much of it, or maybe even any. But since I dont know for sure, Im just sorta hedging my bet.
On a side note my friend at work gets gout bad when he eats red meat. Its hilarious. He hates vegatables. Thats not a good sign for the eat meat argument.
There is a guy on youtube called Vegan Gains. He is smart and hilarious as hell. He makes a lot of good points about the problems with meat. You should give him a listen. It takes a few videos to get used to him though. He goes after all the bodybuilders and meat advocates on youtube.
I haven't gone full Vegan because I dont want to give up meat products totally just yet, but I can tell a big difference in how I feel from raw Vegan, and it just makes sense that its better for you.
There are a lot of studies out that point to meat causing cancer. I think its wise that you dont eat too much of it, or maybe even any. But since I dont know for sure, Im just sorta hedging my bet.
On a side note my friend at work gets gout bad when he eats red meat. Its hilarious. He hates vegatables. Thats not a good sign for the eat meat argument.
There is a guy on youtube called Vegan Gains. He is smart and hilarious as hell. He makes a lot of good points about the problems with meat. You should give him a listen. It takes a few videos to get used to him though. He goes after all the bodybuilders and meat advocates on youtube.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
Another thing people should talk about more is fasting. Or intermittent fasting. Its has awesome health benefits. Humans werent made to be eating all the damn time. 3+ meals a day is stupid. Its part of the reason why America is so fat.
Do these things and you will feel great.
Fast
90% of diet plant products
Eat probiotic foods
Reduce sugar intake
Dont drink
Dont smoke
Dont do drugs
Sleep 8 hours
Exercise.
Thank me later
Thats the best formula for a healthy long life
Do these things and you will feel great.
Fast
90% of diet plant products
Eat probiotic foods
Reduce sugar intake
Dont drink
Dont smoke
Dont do drugs
Sleep 8 hours
Exercise.
Thank me later
Thats the best formula for a healthy long life
MVP
Well-Known Member
lol, Ron, maybe you should post some links support your anecdotal claims. Omega 3 is not abundant in vegan sources and as I already said it is nowhere close to bio availability and value compared to one coming from fish oils. You should read this before arguing about omegas, really.
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...11/omega-3-from-plants-vs-marine-animals.aspx
Omega-3 from plant sources do not provide the same benefits as that from marine animals, as the omega-3 found in plants can’t be converted by your body into the omega-3 you find in marine oils
ALA is a precursor to EPA and DHA. However the conversion rate is extremely small, so you cannot eat enough plant-based omega-3 to achieve healthy levels of EPA and DHA
Short-chain fatty acids like ALA are a source of energy, while the long-chain fatty acids DHA and EPA are structural elements that actually make up your cells
Not sure why you are so stubborn about Vit B12 when even most famous vegan website agrees with me.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resour...hat-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
B12 is the only vitamin that is not recognised as being reliably supplied from a varied wholefood, plant-based diet with plenty of fruit and vegetables, together with exposure to sun.
Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.
Something vegans may not know about iron: Iron is found in both plant and animal foods, but the type of iron differs. Heme-iron is found only in meat, primarily red meat. Non-heme iron is found in plants, but this type of iron is more poorly absorbed by your body. Moreover, heme-iron helps with the absorption of non-heme iron from plants, so vegans and strict vegetarians have an elevated risk of anemia, even though they're getting plant-based iron.
How about so popular amino acid creatine which most athletes use to help with muscle building?
"Creatine is not essential in the diet, since it can be produced by the liver. However, vegetarians and vegans have lower amounts of creatine in their muscles. Placing people on a vegan diet for 26 days causes a significant decrease in muscle creatine.
Because creatine is not found in any plant foods, vegetarians and vegans can only get it from supplements."
I could go on and on.. science and real life experience of 85% former vegans tells everything you need to know. Vegan diet is not healthy. The only justifiable reason to put your body at risk is for ethical reasons, but please do it with all appropriate supplements and regular medical tests.
You can read tons of happy ending stories of people who quite vegan diet and immediately felt 100% better like this.
http://thewholetara.com/why-im-not-vegan-anymore/
https://alexandrajamieson.com/im-not-vegan-anymore/
Sigh, there is so much wrong with the post. I am not sure I have time to address most of it. But ill stick with the B12 thing that you seem very confused about. Ill ignore the anecdotal stories at the bottom that are of no interest to me.
But lets just stick to this. If you want to claim that you need to be careful and watch what you eat as a vegan that I agree. But that is no different than everyone elses diet. There is a reason a lot of people are very unhealthy and overweight. All people need to eat well and pay attention. There is also a reason we are living longer and people are healthier. We are learning more about healthy eating and we are fortifying foods we need more of.
Okay, the B12 thing. Yes there are no singular food you can eat as a vegan that gives you all the b12 you need. Vegans have to eat foods fortified with it or supplement with it. Again there are lots of foods in this category for vegans and non vegans. But there are lots of foods fortified with it. Thankfully science has created ways for us to isolate b12 and make it from bacteria that is from non animal sources. It is created from bacteria grown and added to foods. It is more pure and better source of B12 than getting it from eating things like meat. That is why it is fortified in food. Vegans need it but it is also needed for non vegans.
Again ill repeat this since you dont understand. Yes there is no wholefood plant based source of B12. There are vegan sources of B12 that are supplemented or fortified in foods. Its a pretty easy solution.
Many many many people live healthy vegan lives. Science has proven it can be healthy. You have yet to make a real claim against eating vegan.
Here is a summary of your claims:
You cant get B12 as a vegan. Answer: yes you can it is fortified and supplemented. The source of those can be from vegan sources it is grown from bacteria. Easy solution.
Other things you cant get like Omega 3, calcium, iron. Answer: Yes, there are plenty of options for those as a vegan and you can eat them and live fine.
Evolution! Answer: Well that is not needed because claiming evolution proves nothing. Modern science has proven better than every what humans need and we are living longer and healthier.
Well thats it. I have actual work to do with clients building their nutritional plans for athletes and other people, Including some very healthy vegans, that are more healthy than you or I.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-diet-studies
MVP
Well-Known Member
Based on what? That they lost weight or feel better after few month or a 1-2 years? Most of our bodies will tolerate nutritional abuse for quite some time, yet after internal resources are exhausted problems will start showing up. That's exactly what most former ( even famous ) vegans started experiencing around 5-7 years into their vegan diet and eventually abandoned it.
Show me scientific data/research showing that vegans are healthier than omnivors or vegetarians. There is none.
Except my ACL tear ( which has nothing to do with diet) I am in extremely good health at my 46 years - based on annual blood/urine tests, perfect blood pressure and other NUMBERS. I would love to meet a healthier vegan ( who has been on vegan diet for more then 7 years) - unfortunately never encountered one.
MVP
Well-Known Member
So we are in agreement that humans did not evolve to eat vegan as that would lead to B12 deficiency. Great, finally we agree on something.
That B12 is produced by microorganisms and some may call it "vegan" source is irrelevant. The mere fact that you absolutely need to supplement proves my point - humans did not evolve to eat vegan.
MVP
Well-Known Member
So you just blatantly ignore science which talks about amounts, availability, quality and absorption. How about the facts - yes, there are options but they are limited and not comparable to ones from animal sources.
MVP
Well-Known Member
So much wrong with these " studies"... Most of of them was 4-18 week studies, one of them was 14 days study lol... one of them was all focused on cholesterol which now we know has nothing to do with heart disease, other focused on weight loss - no surprise at all or no proof that it is any healthier than other weight loss diets, BMI index - useless, One study find no difference in omnivorous vs vegetarian diet ( Both diets had similar effects on weight loss, appetite and gut hormone levels.) Arthritis studies is a total joke as obviously all benefits in few weeks reported are due to weight loss and not to the diet itself.
How about these findings?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/
"The finding may help explain previous research which found vegetarian populations are nearly 40 per cent more likely to suffer colorectal cancer than meat eaters, a finding that has puzzled doctors because eating red meat is known to raise the risk."
Lmao vegan gains is a clown tho
You are pretty much the same as me tho. It is crazy how much better your body feels when you dramatically cut back on meat, but the occasional burger or taco is too much to pass up sometimes.
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There are a lot of studies funded by cattle and chicken industries too.
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MVP
Well-Known Member
Never argued about that. You can have nutritionally appropriate vegan diet when properly supplemented. Unfortunately for regular Joe it is very difficult and expensive, thus 84% relapse rate and only 0.5% doing it.
At the end of the day it is up to each individual to chose what's best for them. Tons of info, do your proper research and go ahead. If it won't work for you it is easy to switch back.
MVP
Well-Known Member
I would argue that for example paleo or modified paleo diet is way easier on your budget. With vegan diet you need to eat more to get the same amount of protein, calories, etc. Fruits, nuts and vegetables are quite expensive when compared to meat, eggs or fish when you look at how much you need to get to the same amount of calories and protein.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
That totally depends on what kind of vegetarian or vegan you are. For example, if you're one that attempts to turn your political choice of vegetarianism or veganism into a diet that makes up for the loss of meat consumption in the healthiest way possible, then things can get really expensive. But if you choose to remain committed to the simple ethos of vegetarianism or veganism without any specific concern over or referent to health, then things can be cheaper.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Well to be on poor and unbalanced vegan diet may be cheaper, lol ( beans and soy are cheap and not very healthy). But if you try to get nutritionally adequate diet including all supplements it gets pricey as with vegan diet you need to eat way more. Fruits and nuts are expensive, organic vegetables are expensive, quinoa and other super grains are expensive as well.
For example to get same amount of calcium what you get from cup of milk you need 16 cups of spinach. 100 gr of beef vs 500 gr of quinoa for same amount of protein ( which is not providing all necessary amino acids BTW). Already mentioned how much flaxseed oil you would need compared to tiny amount of fish oils. Add supplement costs. If you eat out - it will get even worse.