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Another religious topic......

Is there some sort of litmus test for being a Christian other than believing Jesus Christ is the son of God?


As a bit of an aside, what kills me about religion and its followers is that when some nutjob like the Christian in Sweden kills people many will say he wasn't a "true" Christian since the actions of murder contradict core Christian principles, but when a group of nutjob Muslims run planes into buildings well they are still Muslims, just extreme...even though murder seems to violate core Muslim principles. Well, what is it? Do actions define a religious belief or is it something that someone just has a belief in?

Well, Christian means Christ-follower. So following Christ is what it means to be a Christian. Just believing that He is the Son of God does not mean you are a Christian. Rough paraphrase of what it says in the Bible, "Even the demons believe."

I may be wrong on this, so I will accept any criticism on this....but Muhammad is the chief prophet of the Islamic religion. Muhammad committed many, many acts of murder and such. Now there are different types of Islam just like there are different denominations of Christianity such as, Baptist, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational, Presbyterian. I could be completely off though, I studied the Islamic religion a long time ago and I'm probably a little rusty on their beliefs and history.


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Stripping away every vestige of any belief at all, among a people with a majority of believers, is forcing atheism on people every bit as much as erecting a crucifix at city hall would be forcing Christianity on everyone.

I agree, but you are mioscharacterizing the situation. Removing government sanctions of religion is not stripping away every vestige of belief. Goverments legally have nativities on public grounds every Chritstmas, they just have to allow other viewpoints (an open forum). You can display the Ten Commandments, but as part of a broader display. Students pray in school every day, but teachers can't lead or force them to. Sure. some administrators go too far in stepping on rights, but the ACLU is just as quick to enforce a students right to pray as it is to enforce their right to be free from prayer.

Preventing Christians from using governemnt to say their religion is preferred is not forcing atheism. It allows Christianity to flourish on the merit of its own ideas.
 
Atheists have no religion to force on other people. Not teaching any religion is not forcing religion.

Oh please, atheism is just as much a religion as anything else. It requires faith and devotion to believe in it. Heck, I think it requires more faith to believe there is no God than to believe there is one. Even the demons believe.



/I still <3 you OneBrow. Can you please make your avatar Anthony Davis btw....it will make me giggle profusely.
 
Students pray in school every day, but teachers can't lead or force them to.

Why can't a coach lead his team in prayer? The coach is an individual with Constitutional rights as well.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
Well, Christian means Christ-follower. So following Christ is what it means to be a Christian. Just believing that He is the Son of God does not mean you are a Christian. Rough paraphrase of what it says in the Bible, "Even the demons believe."

I may be wrong on this, so I will accept any criticism on this....but Muhammad is the chief prophet of the Islamic religion. Muhammad committed many, many acts of murder and such. Now there are different types of Islam just like there are different denominations of Christianity such as, Baptist, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational, Presbyterian. I could be completely off though, I studied the Islamic religion a long time ago and I'm probably a little rusty on their beliefs and history.


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Christian's literally believe that Jesus Christ is God or part of the trinity of God. We Muslims are against being called Muhammadians because it implies we worship Muhammad (PBUH) the same way Christians do to God. Muslim means someone who "attains peace from submitting will to God." Muhammad is the chief prophet of Islam because we believe he is the only prophet that has a miracle that can be observed even to this day. That Miracle is the Qur'an. It has contained the exact same verses to the word since 1400 years ago. No scientific inaccuracies while containing 1/5th science. It is the very reason the Golden Age of Islam happened. Nowaday's Muslims are going against the teaching of Islam and that is causing them to be bad. The Qur'an is LESS strict then the Bible on how women should dress (read 1 Corinthians 11:6). Hijab is mentioned in the Qur'an a grand total of zero times, it only says women should dress modestly. Wearing Hijab is really something like wearing a beard a tribute to the prophets(all of them) and their wives AND virgin Mary who also wore Hijab. Not a single Muslim Country can even claim the technological advancement of a country as Korea who was a starving nation just 50 years ago and has limited resources.

Muhammad (PBUH) was not a murderer. Islam is not like recent Christianity where by accepting Jesus Christ your sins are forgiven. You are accountable for your own sins and Muhammad (PBUH) was the same.
 
Verily! Allah grasps the heavens and the earth lest they move away from their places, and if they were to move away from their places, there is not one that could grasp them after Him.

I thought the heavens and earth were in constant motion. According to the qu'ran they are fixed in place.

And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?

Uses the word "noor" which implies lit from within, no mention of the moon reflecting light from the sun.

Quran 71:16. And has made the moon a noor therein, and made the sun a lamp?

See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another.

Aren't there billions and billions of stars, galaxies, etc.?

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones then clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

Definitely not the biological progression of the formation of a human being.

And the earth We have stretched it out, spread it flat, and cast therein firm mountains, lest it should sway beneath its inhabitants, and caused to grow therein every kind of balanced thing, known and determined.

Mountains do not prevent earthquakes. The earth isn't flat either.
 
Oh please, atheism is just as much a religion as anything else. It requires faith and devotion to believe in it. Heck, I think it requires more faith to believe there is no God than to believe there is one. Even the demons believe.

I didn't read all 9 pages so I don't know if this is sarcasm?
 
Heaven is the atmosphere. In Islam Jannah meaning paradise is different from Heaven.
Noor means reflected light or borrowed light. It says the sun provides its own light while the moon has reflected light. It also says the lowest layer of Heaven is adorned with stars which are described as lamps just like the sun. Basically this entire universe is all the first layer of heaven, there are 6 layers beyond that we don't know about.

"Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him. Indeed, He is Forbearing and Forgiving. " You had a poor translation there.

Keith Moore is one of the most renowned embryologists (when I took embryology we used his book) and he even says that the Quran rights stuff about embryology that wasn't know for even the last 100 years. It says that our embryo looks like a leach, then afterwards gets bones and muscles. That is exactly what happens.

Once again poor translation 31:10
"He created the heavens without pillars that you see and has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with you, and dispersed therein from every creature. And We sent down rain from the sky and made grow therein [plants] of every noble kind."
 
Christian's literally believe that Jesus Christ is God or part of the trinity of God. We Muslims are against being called Muhammadians because it implies we worship Muhammad (PBUH) the same way Christians do to God. Muslim means someone who "attains peace from submitting will to God." Muhammad is the chief prophet of Islam because we believe he is the only prophet that has a miracle that can be observed even to this day. That Miracle is the Qur'an. It has contained the exact same verses to the word since 1400 years ago. No scientific inaccuracies while containing 1/5th science. It is the very reason the Golden Age of Islam happened. Nowaday's Muslims are going against the teaching of Islam and that is causing them to be bad. The Qur'an is LESS strict then the Bible on how women should dress (read 1 Corinthians 11:6). Hijab is mentioned in the Qur'an a grand total of zero times, it only says women should dress modestly. Wearing Hijab is really something like wearing a beard a tribute to the prophets(all of them) and their wives AND virgin Mary who also wore Hijab. Not a single Muslim Country can even claim the technological advancement of a country as Korea who was a starving nation just 50 years ago and has limited resources.

Muhammad (PBUH) was not a murderer. Islam is not like recent Christianity where by accepting Jesus Christ your sins are forgiven. You are accountable for your own sins and Muhammad (PBUH) was the same.

Yes, Christian's believe that Jesus Christ is God. That is why Christians are called Christ-followers. I don't believe I ever called you a Muhammadian so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I have some questions for you regarding the contradictions here.


Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …



Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but that's what I'm getting from there.


Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

Soooo....stars(lamps) were created as missiles to drive away Satans. Yeah, that sounds about right to me.



Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

This idea also came from the Greek. Aristotle erroneously believed that, humans are originated from the action of male ***** upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. Quran’s assertion on Clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

Modern science tells us that, the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth; hence there are no hard- and- fast boundaries of stages as Quran describes. Quran describes 4 stages, which matches exactly with Galenic description of development of human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).

You can say that Muhammad was not a murderer, but he ordered people to be killed. One could say the same thing about Hitler, and he's called a murderer often. Ordering somebody to die and killing them yourself is essentially the same thing. Also, could you clarify what you mean on being held accountable for your own sins? Most Christians I know acknowledge the fact that them sinning is their own fault, however they also recognize that Jesus has given us the gift of forgiveness without which we would be lost. You'll never be able to do more good than bad, so if we alone are accountable for our own sins and nobody takes them from us, we are doomed.
 
Why does it say that Allah is the light, original word noor, of the heavens and earth? What light is he reflecting?

Thus we find that the Qur'an never says that the moon is not a light, and it never says that the moon reflects light. In fact, the Qur'an uses exactly the wrong language from a scientific point of view. It says in Suras 71:16 and 10:5 that Allah "made the moon a light" . However, in other verses the Qur'an says that Allah is a "noor", a light. Look at Sura An-Noor 24:35, one of the most beautiful passages in the Qur'an. It reads:

Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.
 
Oh please, atheism is just as much a religion as anything else. It requires faith and devotion to believe in it. Heck, I think it requires more faith to believe there is no God than to believe there is one. Even the demons believe.



/I still <3 you OneBrow. Can you please make your avatar Anthony Davis btw....it will make me giggle profusely.

I disagree completely. My take is this: It has been asserted that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being exists and that said being created our world and our species. I say prove it.

I'm an atheist waiting for the assertion to be given some credibility.

I'm sure you're familiar with the pastafarians, right? They assert that a giant spaghetti monster exists and is in fact the true creator. The point they make is that to not believe them would be the rational view, as there is no evidence that a giant spaghetti monster actually exists.

It is similar to the invisible pink unicorn argument. Do I require a certain kind of faith to not believe that invisible pink unicorns exist? Or am I just defaulting to the skeptical view of baseless assertions?
 
Oh, and being an atheist doesn't make me one bit closer to being a freaking muslim. Not even close.
 
Qur'an 22:47 a day in Jannah is like a thousand years on earth in which we count. The arabic word they use for day is simply a period of time or an era. When it states 6 days or 2 days or w/e it is referring era's or periods of times.

alaqa also means a leach like substance. Embyro's look like leaches.

Quran 67:5 "And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze."

It says it will punish satan with the same substance that stars are made up from. Fire hotter then anything on earth.

I am SOOO happy you brought up the light thing.

Look up this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2oxoagQbM&feature=channel_video_title

Every living and nonliving thing including you and I and the earth and the sun was made up from light using the equation E = MC^2 back when the Big Bang happened.
 
Qur'an 22:47 a day in Jannah is like a thousand years on earth in which we count. The arabic word they use for day is simply a period of time or an era. When it states 6 days or 2 days or w/e it is referring era's or periods of times.

alaqa also means a leach like substance. Embyro's look like leaches.

Quran 67:5 "And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze."

It says it will punish satan with the same substance that stars are made up from. Fire hotter then anything on earth.

I am SOOO happy you brought up the light thing.

Look up this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2oxoagQbM&feature=channel_video_title

Every living and nonliving thing including you and I and the earth and the sun was made up from light using the equation E = MC^2 back when the Big Bang happened.

So this qualifies as some sort of proof? Call me unimpressed.

Do Muslims value faith as highly as Christians? Doesn't faith require lack of proof?
 
Oh please, atheism is just as much a religion as anything else. It requires faith and devotion to believe in it. Heck, I think it requires more faith to believe there is no God than to believe there is one. Even the demons believe.



/I still <3 you OneBrow. Can you please make your avatar Anthony Davis btw....it will make me giggle profusely.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hantlers again.
 
Atheism may not be a religion per se but it is most definitely a belief system. Atheists forcing their beliefs onto Christians is just as egregious as Christians forcing their beliefs on atheists.
 
So this qualifies as some sort of proof? Call me unimpressed.

Do Muslims value faith as highly as Christians? Doesn't faith require lack of proof?

In Islam there is a concept called Taqwa which is the oneness of God. The Qur'an is believed to be the direct word of God and if we are able to prove a part of it wrong we are given enough proof to not believe it. In Christianity it can be said that it was a poor translation etc, or that it was accounted slightly incorrectly since it was written years later.
 
It is unfortunate that Ive been busy studying for midterms lately, or I wouldnt be letting the Black Swordsman embarrass my faith as much as he has.


Ill try and keep this quite concise:

1) It is incredibly difficult to base somewhat science-related verses in the Quran and apply them into our modern world, when we are looking at the english translations of the Quran. A lot of words in Arabic do not transfer into english, and therefore there are some ill-suiting synonyms, such as "days", that are sometimes used in english translations, that sort of detract from the worth of the scripture. I know this could be interpreted as a cop-out, but I am of the opinion that it isnt
2) You are all MUCH better off doing a simple google search as to how the Quran and Modern science exhibit some sort of scientific similarities, than listening to the Black Swordsman. The guys condescending tone is even unbearable to me, even though I share the same faith as him. Heres an example of what I would consider to at least be an interesting link: https://www.quranandscience.com/human/205-the-sensation-of-skin-pain.html
quranandscience.com is decently informative, and the bias isnt too heavy from what I have encountered.
3) I think there was a poster earlier in the thread that said that its different if muslims embrace extremeism, as opposed to if a christian embraces extremeism, because muhammad himself was a murderer. :( Dont know what to say to that, so I will post links instead, and hopefully they can do the speaking for me.

https://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm

Question: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?
Answer: The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.
There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing "jihadism," or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

"Slay Them" - If They Attack You First

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

"Fight the Pagans" - If They Break Treaties

A similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.
This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).

Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."

Conclusion

Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.
The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."


Now, for some quran verses that I enjoy:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book (Book, meaning Testaments), except with means better [than meer dispute] unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong [and injury]: but say, "we believe in the revelation in which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)

And argue not with the People of the Book unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender
-29:46


These quotes will hopefully douse a lot of the intolerant fire that Islam seems to get from the western media. In fact, my faith was probably one of the most tolerant, during and about 1000 years after its conception. The arab world over the past 50 years has unfortunately reversed this process completely, however.

Lastly:


Verse 5:32 of the Quran is on capital punishment. It mentions two cases where capital punishment is allows.
The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss.
Spreading mischief in the land is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:
• Treason / Apostacy (when one leaves the faith and joins the enemy in fighting against the Muslim community)
• Terrorism
• Land, sea, or air piracy
• Rape
• Adultery
The following verse, 5:33, applies to those that wage was against the Muslims. The verse prescribes death as one of the punishments but not as the only one. After the “Battle of the trench”, in which Jews living under the Prophet joined forces with the opposing army to wage war against him, the Prophet decided to exile the Jews that conspired against him. He did not kill them. Nor did the Prophet kill the pagans that lived in Makkah, who had been waging war against him for years, when he conquered it.
“Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made, because they are oppressed. And Allah is able to assist them — those who are driven from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah.” (22:39-40)
“And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.” (2:190)
“And if they incline to peace, you must also incline to it, and trust in Allah.” (8:61)
Your conclusion that Islam declares war against anyone who isn’t a Muslim is incorrect. Islam teaches tolerance of other religions.
“If anyone of the idolaters seek your protection, protect him till he hears the word of Allah, then convey him to his place of safety. This is because they are a people who have no knowledge.” (9:6)
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. (60:8)
The Quran does not ask Muslims to fight and convert everyone to Islam. As can be seen from the following verse
“If they accept Islam, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, your duty (O Prophet) is only to deliver the message.” (3:20)
Let me continue by mentioning some of the sayings of the Prophet regarding tolerance. pay attention to this, Hantlers
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet."
"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God."
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."
Now that I’ve cleared up your misconceptions, I have to ask how you can judge an entire book based on four sentences? Have you read the Quran? Have you looked into the details of the verses you mentioned? How can one judge an entire book by just four sentences?
The fact that needs to be understood is that religiously oriented violence has by no means been confined to Islam. In the United States, abortion clinics have been bombed and their doctors shot because, to the perpetrators, the Christian Bible commands it. Jim Jones killed or required the suicide of his own followers at his camp in Guyana, and David Koresh did nothing to prevent the mass death of his followers at Waco. Lets not forget issues such as the molestation of young boys by priests at several different Churches, the cannibalism committed by the Crusaders during the first Crusade and the acts of the BTK killer who was the head of a church.
Muslims don’t blame Christians or the Bible for all these actions. They blame religious extremists.
 
Im glad you found the time between studying your midterms to type out 4 or 5 sentences and then copy and paste walls of texts from other sources.

Also I am happy you managed to find two whole verses that you finally were able to enjoy from the Qur'an.
 
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