Anti Trans Laws

[The Thriller]

It seems to me like we have a segment of the population that hasn’t gotten over Obergefell so as a result, trans children are now the new target to be terrorized.



Similar laws have been/shortly will be passed in most ALEC controlled states, Texas, Florida, etc. Republicans take these ALEC written laws and pass them knowing that it really excites their base who just can’t get over gay marriage.

This is incredibly disturbing. Especially when you consider that many of the folks celebrating these highly intrusive and authoritarian laws have for the last two years bitched about needing freedom from the tyranny of wearing cloth over their faces during a pandemic.

These Anti-Trans Laws Are Illegal, Immoral, and Ignorant

Idaho is the latest state to try to ban transgender-affirming healthcare. These efforts are both legally doomed and morally evil.

www.thedailybeast.com

Dehumanizing the LGBT community with such overbearing laws isn’t going to accomplish anything good. These children already share a disproportionate amount of depression, homelessness, and suicide. I can’t imagine these laws will help things. Or their families.

 

[Avery]

So get less time for murder. Makes sense.

 

[JazzGal]

This all makes me sick.

Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Ron Mexico]

I dont think much of this would get upheld in a court, especially moving to a new state.

What exactly is the gender affirming care? If its surgery than I am more somewhat okay with this type of law. I think trans kids should wait until they are adults to make those major decisions, maybe even hormone treatments. If its support and mental health care and more basic needs than that is terrible.

It is a hard subject in regards to the surgery. But that is a major life choice and I dont think a child should make that choice that young even with parental and medical guidance. I kind of get the life saving argument for teens dealing with that, but I still think there are better options and it can wait. Even though every teen thinks they cant wait for anything. I understand hormone treatments and surgery can lower the risk of suicide, but I think therapy and support can also help them until they are an adult and can properly make that choice. Kids brains are not developed and often make poor choices. But I dont know, maybe there is more I am missing. I guess hormones are less permanent and major, so maybe.

I cant think of something similar with this though, which makes it more hard. Obviously being transgendered is real and a huge ordeal to deal with. As far as surgery goes to me that should wait. As far as hormones and blockers that one is a little more debatable people who are not adults yet. Its not the same but I also would be opposed to parents giving their teens plastic surgery because they dont like something about themselves. I think they should wait. But I guess there are some I am less opposed to like cleft lip of babies. Its a whole lot of issues with this area in general. Even circumcision is debatable to me. But I doubt these conservatives would support a bill banning circumcision like they are with this, which might be worse from a neutral view.

But I am far from an expert in this and would trust people who are experts.

TLDR: I dont really know much about it but I see there is room for a debate with some of it. Its a complicated issue that is way above me.

 

[One Brow]

What exactly is the gender affirming care?

One of the most common versions are puberty blockers. They are used routinely in cases of early puberty, and have very minimal side effects.

 

[Ron Mexico]

One of the most common versions are puberty blockers. They are used routinely in cases of early puberty, and have very minimal side effects.

Just a quick research shows that is only a temporary thing, that starts around 10-11 or so and is used for a couple years until needing to go a different route. They do have some long term effects but it doesnt seem to bad short term. They will definitely effect growth, fertility later, other stuff.

But those seem more reasonable assuming proper steps were taken with medical professionals. But I can still see some debate to it especially with kids that age.

 

[JazzGal]

I don't think legislators should be making these types of medical decisions. While I agree that it would probably be best in almost all cases to delay surgery until adulthood, I still don't think that should be the legislature's business.

And I don't think this will do well in a legal battle anyway. But I'm sure they don't really care - they got what they wanted anyway. Votes from the highly prejudiced among us.

Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I don't think legislators should be making these types of medical decisions. While I agree that it would probably be best in almost all cases to delay surgery until adulthood, I still don't think that should be the legislature's business.

I can agree with this. This issue belongs in the domain of the courts. All the legislatures should do is strip crimes against children of statues of limitations protections. If some moron parent thinks their 5 year old boy is really a girl trapped in a boy’s body and finds a care provider who will perform surgery or prescribe a course of medications that permanently alter that child, then a decade or so later the child commits suicide the care providers should all be liable.

We already have the data. Gender-dysphoric children who receive care no more intrusive than counseling usually end up growing to be homosexual adults while gender-dysphoric children who receive some form of irreversible “gender-affirming” medical care have a significantly higher rate of suicide.

Conclusions: Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality.

Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children - PubMed

Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If knowing that, as we do now know, a doctor still goes forward with a course statistically more likely to end in the child’s death then that doctor should be held liable, and the hospital held liable, and the drug company held liable. We also have child endangerment laws already on the books to charge the parents with, so we really don’t need new ones that specially target the parents who sign off. Those parents who sign off on permanent "gender-affirming" alterations to their children should be treated like the parents who put their kids into child porn.

 

[The Thriller]

I don't think legislators should be making these types of medical decisions. While I agree that it would probably be best in almost all cases to delay surgery until adulthood, I still don't think that should be the legislature's business.

And I don't think this will do well in a legal battle anyway. But I'm sure they don't really care - they got what they wanted anyway. Votes from the highly prejudiced among us.

Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app

And to criminalize this with sentences of life in prison? This is just nothing more than republicans (the party of small government *giggle*) feeding their anti LGBT base red meat.

 

[LogGrad98]

It seems to me like we have a segment of the population that hasn’t gotten over Obergefell so as a result, trans children are now the new target to be terrorized.



Similar laws have been/shortly will be passed in most ALEC controlled states, Texas, Florida, etc. Republicans take these ALEC written laws and pass them knowing that it really excites their base who just can’t get over gay marriage.

This is incredibly disturbing. Especially when you consider that many of the folks celebrating these highly intrusive and authoritarian laws have for the last two years bitched about needing freedom from the tyranny of wearing cloth over their faces during a pandemic.

These Anti-Trans Laws Are Illegal, Immoral, and Ignorant

Idaho is the latest state to try to ban transgender-affirming healthcare. These efforts are both legally doomed and morally evil.

www.thedailybeast.com

Dehumanizing the LGBT community with such overbearing laws isn’t going to accomplish anything good. These children already share a disproportionate amount of depression, homelessness, and suicide. I can’t imagine these laws will help things. Or their families.

Enforcing this will be nearly impossible. No way the courts uphold this crap. Especially the part about moving to another state. How do they determine that? Such garbage.

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't think legislators should be making these types of medical decisions. While I agree that it would probably be best in almost all cases to delay surgery until adulthood, I still don't think that should be the legislature's business.

And I don't think this will do well in a legal battle anyway. But I'm sure they don't really care - they got what they wanted anyway. Votes from the highly prejudiced among us.

Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app

IMO legislators should be making zero medical decisions, aside from things that are clearly harmful, as determined by a competent medical board. Otherwise, keep the lawmakers the **** out of the personal medical decisions. Periodt.

 

[LogGrad98]

I dont think much of this would get upheld in a court, especially moving to a new state.

What exactly is the gender affirming care? If its surgery than I am more somewhat okay with this type of law. I think trans kids should wait until they are adults to make those major decisions, maybe even hormone treatments. If its support and mental health care and more basic needs than that is terrible.

It is a hard subject in regards to the surgery. But that is a major life choice and I dont think a child should make that choice that young even with parental and medical guidance. I kind of get the life saving argument for teens dealing with that, but I still think there are better options and it can wait. Even though every teen thinks they cant wait for anything. I understand hormone treatments and surgery can lower the risk of suicide, but I think therapy and support can also help them until they are an adult and can properly make that choice. Kids brains are not developed and often make poor choices. But I dont know, maybe there is more I am missing. I guess hormones are less permanent and major, so maybe.

I cant think of something similar with this though, which makes it more hard. Obviously being transgendered is real and a huge ordeal to deal with. As far as surgery goes to me that should wait. As far as hormones and blockers that one is a little more debatable people who are not adults yet. Its not the same but I also would be opposed to parents giving their teens plastic surgery because they dont like something about themselves. I think they should wait. But I guess there are some I am less opposed to like cleft lip of babies. Its a whole lot of issues with this area in general. Even circumcision is debatable to me. But I doubt these conservatives would support a bill banning circumcision like they are with this, which might be worse from a neutral view.

But I am far from an expert in this and would trust people who are experts.

TLDR: I dont really know much about it but I see there is room for a debate with some of it. Its a complicated issue that is way above me.

This is tough for minors. Hard decisions all the way around with possible lifelong ramifications. My daughter, who came out as bi in high school, is involved in this community with many friends. She had a friend who wanted gender affirming surgery when she was 14. Now at 22 she is very happy it didn't happen and feels that she is better as a lesbian than as a man. There is a reason minors cannot sign contracts and such, they tend to make decisions based on hormones and very limited knowledge that as an adult they might not make. I can get behind restrictions like this, but sweeping criminalization of these kinds of decisions is just ridiculous.

 

[One Brow]

If some moron parent thinks their 5 year old boy is really a girl trapped in a boy’s body and finds a care provider who will perform surgery or prescribe a course of medications that permanently alter that child,

What a great example of fear warping visions. Genital surgeries on young children have traditionally been performed to enforce a specific gender identity assigned at birth, not alter it; that is, it's been the people like you alter children's genitals so they better match what people like you think they should resemble. Where are these fever dreams of 5-year-olds getting gender surgery coming from?

then a decade or so later the child commits suicide the care providers should all be liable.

You just minimized and dismissed these children's pain while trying to use their suicide to buff your argument. Do you understand how callous that makes you seem?

Gender-dysphoric children who receive care no more intrusive than counseling usually end up growing to be homosexual adults

That's why no medical society recommends making permanent changes to children. You're arguing against a fantasy of your own making.

 

[One Brow]

Just a quick research shows that is only a temporary thing, that starts around 10-11 or so and is used for a couple years until needing to go a different route. They do have some long term effects but it doesnt seem to bad short term. They will definitely effect growth, fertility later, other stuff.

Different drugs will have different effects.

But those seem more reasonable assuming proper steps were taken with medical professionals. But I can still see some debate to it especially with kids that age.

This is why it's important that nothing truly irreversible happens. Kids need time to grow and discover who they are.

 

[The Thriller]

Enforcing this will be nearly impossible. No way the courts uphold this crap. Especially the part about moving to another state. How do they determine that? Such garbage.

That's probably true but much like the anti-CRT and abortion laws Republicans have been passing recently it will result in:

1) Doctors being intimidated from trying to help trans children just as anti-CRT laws were designed to intimidate teachers from teaching history and health care professionals from providing women's care.
2) Hurting the most vulnerable. Sure, a rich and well connected politician's family will find a way to get the treatment they want/need. But a poor family with a trans child will be hurt. They don't have the money to fight this in court.

So much of what passes for legislation these days is merely message bills designed to serve as red meat to the dumbest and most intolerant demographic in their political base.

There is no reason for government to interfere this much in the lives of the LGBT community.

 

[The Thriller]

This is tough for minors. Hard decisions all the way around with possible lifelong ramifications. My daughter, who came out as bi in high school, is involved in this community with many friends. She had a friend who wanted gender affirming surgery when she was 14. Now at 22 she is very happy it didn't happen and feels that she is better as a lesbian than as a man. There is a reason minors cannot sign contracts and such, they tend to make decisions based on hormones and very limited knowledge that as an adult they might not make. I can get behind restrictions like this, but sweeping criminalization of these kinds of decisions is just ridiculous.

Criminalizing this with potential for "life in prison" sentences is just plain ridiculous but it serves as raw red meat for primary voters and ambitious candidates hoping to "out extreme" everyone else. There's no incentive to be moderate or rational in our political system right now. The more extreme you are, the more clicks, Fox News invites, and donations you receive.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Similar laws have been/shortly will be passed in most ALEC controlled states, Texas, Florida, etc. Republicans take these ALEC written laws and pass them knowing that it really excites their base who just can’t get over gay marriage.

The protection of kids isn't just red meat for the base. It has broad support across all demographics. The so-called 'Don't Say Gay' bill in Florida, when the actual text of the provision is read to someone before asking if they support that provision, it has overwhelming support.

Here is the controversial provision: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

Opinion | ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Is Popular? You Don’t Say

One poll shows backing from suburbs, parents and . . . Democrats.

www.wsj.com

This law is an anti-pedophile law. It makes it harder for pedophiles who have jobs teaching 5-8 year old kids to groom them.

Dehumanizing the LGBT community with such overbearing laws isn’t going to accomplish anything good. These children already share a disproportionate amount of depression, homelessness, and suicide. I can’t imagine these laws will help things. Or their families.

These laws do the exact opposite. They humanize people. Why do you think the transgender community, and specifically biological males who identify as trans, have such a high rate of suicide? Why? I guarantee that whatever ridiculous justification you have in your head, it is unsupported by the data. Those who receive "gender affirming" surgery have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. Those who identify as trans but don't have the surgery also have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. People who identify as trans and live in supportive environments or don't live in supportive environments both have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

There is less suicide and depression in war zones and death camps than there is in the trans community. It isn't because life is so hard for people who identify as transgender. Humans actually are adapted to do surprisingly well in those kinds of environments. The reason the suicide rate is so high for biological males who identify as transgender is the same reason old guys die soon after their wife dies, or why the suicide rate is so high for men after losing a job, or the suicide rate is so high for men after a divorce.

There is no magic solution to make a biological male who identifies as transgender to not be a human and subject to all the things evolution has baked in to biological males. In our society today, there clearly is a social contagion aspect to the explosion in transgender identification and I would argue that preventing pedophiles from grooming 5 year old to 8 year old children to start down the path of transgender identification may be one of the most important things we can do to protect those individuals.

 

[One Brow]

Here is the controversial provision: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I disagree that this is the controversial provision.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF

This is from the preamble, stating the goals of the bill:

prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner;

I remember when conservatives didn't like unfunded mandates:

requiring the Commissioner of Education to appoint a special magistrate for unresolved concerns; ... requiring school districts to bear the costs of the special magistrate;

Using lawsuits to settle what should be administrative concerns (when did conservatives get so fond of lawsuits):

authorizing a parent to bring an action against a school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that a school district procedure or practice violates certain provisions of law;

However, let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."

That means no teaching about being straight, either. Since the goal is "prohibiting classroom discussion", no more stories with husbands and wives, or boys who gorw up to be men, or girls who grow up to be women, until grade 4. No talking about your spouse or your parents, unless you have a single parent. Is this what you support? That's how the bill reads.

This law is an anti-pedophile law. It makes it harder for pedophiles who have jobs teaching 5-8 year old kids to groom them.

Was there some large number of elementary school teachers that were engaging in pedophilia in the classroom? Did your brain engage at all when you typed this, or does it just shut off when when someone says "pedophile"?

By the way, this law also prevents teachers from telling children how to stay safe from pedophile grooming, because you can't do that without talking about sex and orientation.. If anything, it's pro-pedophile.

These laws do the exact opposite. They humanize people.

By preventing teachers from discussing a basic human experience in any fashion in grades K-3?

Why do you think the transgender community, and specifically biological males who identify as trans, have such a high rate of suicide? Why?

One reason that comes to mind is people who insist on referring to them as "biological males" as opposed to girls.

Those who receive "gender affirming" surgery have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

So, those who are the most committed to their transition, and therefore the biggest targets of hate, also have the highest rate of suicide? You think this is a statistic that (even if true, and I don't know that it is) support your position?

Those who identify as trans but don't have the surgery also have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

Hate has that effect.

People who identify as trans and live in supportive environments or don't live in supportive environments both have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

Where are these supportive environments for trans people? I only know of areas where you experience the hate a little less frequently. At any rate, I notice you didn't compare those who live in relatively more supportive environment to those who do not. If you were interested in reducing the suicide rate, instead of trying to use it as a cudgel, you would support inclusion.

Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons - PMC

Suicide rate and suicidal tendencies among transgender persons are considerably high compared to general population. Hence, this review is an attempt to understand the issues around the suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The studies have identified a number of risk factors for the high rates of suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The discrimination of the transgender persons in the society has prevented them from obtaining an education, job, and housing because of which they are living in slums or street and have to resort to begging and sex work;[10] this pitiful conditions have lead them to breakdown further and end their life in suicide.[6] Stigma, discrimination, and violence against transgender persons occur across multiple social and institutional contexts; they are verbally harassed, physical and sexually abused[11] and blackmailed by the police and rowdies; rejection, hateredness, verbal and physical abuse from friends and family members, stigmatization, refusal of services, and derogatory labeling at health-care system, etc., have lead them to lose interest in day-to-day activities; the risk of HIV and HIV status increase their psychological distress, and they express thoughts of committing suicide.[17] The suicidality among sexual minority community is associated with poor mental health condition in forms of mental illness,[20,21] psychological pain, emotion fatigue, and low self-esteem; life being hard, being confused about one's sexuality or difficulty in accepting it, not being able to disclose one's sexuality,[8] bullying, history of forced sex, gender-based discrimination, and victimization[9] and isolation are the other reasons for suicide among this population.[10] Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) assault hate crimes at the neighborhood are an additional sociocontextual risk factors for suicidal ideation and attempts among sexual-minority adolescents.[22]

It isn't because life is so hard for people who identify as transgender.

We have the word of this white, cis, hetero man on whose life is hard.

... and I would argue that preventing pedophiles from grooming 5 year old to 8 year old children to start down the path of transgender identification may be one of the most important things we can do to protect those individuals.

Where did you get the idea that there is any connection between being molested and being trans?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."

That means no teaching about being straight, either. Since the goal is "prohibiting classroom discussion", no more stories with husbands and wives, or boys who gorw up to be men, or girls who grow up to be women, until grade 4. No talking about your spouse or your parents, unless you have a single parent. Is this what you support? That's how the bill reads.

It is what most people support. It is what Democrats, Biden voters, and people who know someone LGBTQ support. Teachers do not need to explain who they have sex with to 5 year old kids regardless of it being sex with men or sex with women. Children in K-3 do not need, and should not get, sex education in the classroom against the will of the parents.

As for the rest of your hysteria over stories containing nuclear families, boys growing up to be men or girls growing up to be women, it isn't included and wouldn't get a school sued. Being that this law is going in to effect, it will be easy to debunk your claims when no lawsuits in that direction are filed.

 

[One Brow]

It is what most people support.

I asked what *you* support.

I think "most people" are reacting on incomplete information and without thinking this bill through.

Teachers do not need to explain who they have sex with to 5 year old kids regardless of it being sex with men or sex with women. Children in K-3 do not need, and should not get, sex education in the classroom against the will of the parents.

Pedophiles of Florida rejoice in your position.

As for the rest of your hysteria over stories containing nuclear families, boys growing up to be men or girls growing up to be women, it isn't included and wouldn't get a school sued.

So, what you are counting on is that no one will complain about stories/discussions of boys growing up to be men, but people will complain about stories/discussions of boys growing up to be be women. You are counting on the hate of the parents to allow de facto discrimination to replace a de jure equality.

Being that this law is going in to effect, it will be easy to debunk your claims when no lawsuits in that direction are filed.

I actually agree that no lawsuits will be filed, because few people care about breaking laws when no one agrees with them. As usual, you either missed the point, or thought something was hidden when it's all too obvious.