Anyone catch Colin Cowherd

[NUMBERICA]

So you don’t care if we have a chance of winning the title as long as we are likable? Yeah, **** that lol.

I need one or the other. This iteration is the most frustrating on both points because it turns out they suck and they have kind of given up (these two things are related).

 

[Elizah Huge]

I need one or the other. This iteration is the most frustrating on both points because it turns out they suck and they have kind of given up (these two things are related).

I don’t care how likable they are truly. That is kind of a weird thing to get stuck on in my opinion. You liked the 2018 team the most and that team couldn’t do **** against the Rockets.

EDIT: I retract my two comments because truly who am I to care or decide what makes you tick as a fan. My bad Numb.

 

[Sean]

I don't agree with this. The issue is play style. Jazz have a small, old-fashioned PG in Mike Conley, and a big gangly center in Gobert. The 5-out model, where everyone scores and everyone defends is a better model.

Salt Lake isn't a great market, but neither are Sacramento, San Antonio, Charlotte, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Orlando, Cleveland, Detroit, or Toronto. You can't just write off one-third of the league because the markets aren't attractive.

The Bucks and Suns were in the Finals last year.

Every level of competition, even in the workforce, is going to have outliers that go against the expectation.

But you listed out a bunch of teams who've largely done either about as well as the Jazz the last 40 years or significantly worse.

Sacramento has made the NBA Playoffs ten times in the last forty seasons. They last made it in 2006! They've made one Western Conference Finals (2002) and never made a NBA Finals.

Charlotte (including the old Hornets, the Bobcats and the new Hornets) have made the playoffs just ten times in their history - their first season being 1988. They've been out of the first round four times in their franchise's history. They've never made it out of the semifinals and to the Eastern Conference Finals, however.

Their last playoff series win was in 2002 ... before the franchise relocated to New Orleans.

Their last actual trip to the playoffs was in 2016.

Minnesota came into the NBA a year after Charlotte. In that span, they've made the NBA playoffs 10 times as well. They've only advanced beyond the first round ONCE. In the history of the franchise, the Timberwolves have just 19 playoff wins all-time and TEN of those came in one playoff (when they made the WCF in 2004).

Milwaukee I've gone over.

Orlando had success in the 2000s with Dwight Howard, when they made the NBA Finals in a weak Eastern Conference, and I will concede they've done relatively well. But they still have zero NBA titles and have only made the playoffs twice since 2012.

Cleveland I don't think is comparable to Salt Lake, even though it does get a bad wrap.

See Cleveland for Detroit.

The big knock against Toronto is that they're a Canadian city but they're the fifth largest city in NORTH AMERICA so I just don't see it as a comparison.

Phoenix is where the Jazz have been most their history: good and yet have yet to prove it. We'll see if that changes this year.

San Antonio is an anomaly and always has been.

I think this list shows just how difficult it is to win a title in the NBA when you're not a power market. It takes a perfect storm, like with the Cavs getting LeBron to return after he went to Miami. He was a Hometown Hero who decided to come back and win it all - but there isn't anything remotely similar beyond the Jazz getting Lillard (and he's no LeBron).

The Spurs lucked out. They tanked for one season and got Duncan. Duncan saved a franchise that was very similar to the Jazz - winning Midwest Division titles, being good but just not good enough.

But the Spurs without Duncan haven't done much. Since he retired, the Spurs have had one run in the playoffs: 2017 where they made the WCF and were swept by the Warriors (oddly, a similar season as Utah's in 2007 after Stockton and Malone had retired/left, albeit a bit longer in between those seasons). Since? They've lost the first-round to the Warriors (swept), Nuggets and haven't made the playoffs.

Maybe the Jazz can get an all-time top player in NBA history through the draft. It sure worked for the Bucks too.

But all those other teams I listed out have drafted star players and have as many rings to show for it as Utah. And a lot less consistency.

 

[NUMBERICA]

It is hilarious to me how almost entitled a lot of people sound on here. We could be the ****ing Kings or the Pistons who have not made the playoffs in YEARS.

Sure.

But also... the Pistons have been to the mountaintop and beyond the rings they spent other years going deep into the playoffs (6 straight trips to the ECF in the 2000's or something like that).

The Kings should be sold and shipped to Seattle. I would not torture myself with this obsession if the Kings were my team.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don’t care how likable they are truly. That is kind of a weird thing to get stuck on in my opinion. You liked the 2018 team the most and that team couldn’t do **** against the Rockets.

But they played hard and liked each other. And they were really good, by the way. They would smash this team.

It's kinda weird to me that you're making this point about championship absolutism while you simultaneously tell us how we should be grateful to simply have a good team. I'll take good, likable, and better than this team.

 

[Jingled]

How many Jazz games do you think Colin Cowherd has watched in his entire life? In this clip he says that the Jazz were without Bogdanovic last year...I guess he means they were without Conley in the playoffs?? He doesn't know anything about this franchise, so his opinion means nothing to me.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

It is hilarious to me how almost entitled a lot of people sound on here. We could be the ****ing Kings or the Pistons who have not made the playoffs in YEARS.

It can be fun in different ways to follow draft prospects, have no expectations, getting excited about watching young talent develop, etc. I still had fun in the Core 4 years. This team isn't a contender and is the opposite of fun. It's the worst situation to be in.

Kings are #30 out of thirty NBA teams. So sure, we've got them beat. But the Pistons have Cade, another top 5 pick incoming, and other young fun talent. That will only be improving over the next half decade. I'll trade what we have now for that without blinking.

 

[Sean]

How many Jazz games do you think Colin Cowherd has watched in his entire life? In this clip he says that the Jazz were without Bogdanovic last year...I guess he means they were without Conley in the playoffs?? He doesn't know anything about this franchise, so his opinion means nothing to me.

eh I do think his point is a valid one, tho. You don't have to agree with it but I also believe he's been largely complimentary to the Jazz franchise. The fact is, not many franchises have been as consistently good as the Jazz have the last 40 years - and the list of teams listed out on page two shows this: a great deal of smaller market teams just flat-out struggle.

I know it's nice to point to San Antonio and Milwaukee has proof the Jazz can win it all. But in many ways, it's like pointing to Jeff Bezos and saying, 'see you can be a billionaire too!'. It's not genuine.

There are far better examples of franchises, at least since the Jazz relocated to Salt Lake, struggling or doing less than Utah has over the last 40 years (or roughly the same).

Off the top of my head:

Seattle/Oklahoma City
Portland
Sacramento
Los Angeles Clippers
Phoenix Suns
Denver Nuggets
Minnesota Timberwolves
New Orleans Pelicans
Memphis Grizzlies
Atlanta Hawks
Charlotte Hornets
Orlando Magic
Washington Wizards
Indiana Pacers
Brooklyn Nets
New York Knicks
Philadelphia 76ers

That's 17 of the NBA's 30 teams who've not really exceeded the Jazz' overall success the last 40 years.

Teams I'd say have flat-out exceeded Utah:

Lakers
Warriors
Mavs
Spurs
Rockets
Celtics
Bulls
Cavs
Heat
Raptors

And a few of those teams have not done much of anything since winning their last title. Like the Bulls or the Rockets. Houston hasn't been to a NBA Finals since 1995. The Cavs haven't done anything since LeBron left.

My point? Over half the league has performed, the last 40 or so years, worse than Utah on the whole. I think if the Suns win it all this year, yeah you move 'em to the next list. But outside Phoenix, there's no team on that first list who's matched the consistency of the Jazz the last 40 years. Portland is the closest but that's it.

Pointing to the Bucks and the Spurs means little when there are 17 other franchises the Jazz arguably exceed - and in many instances, by a lot. Those two teams are way more an anomaly when you factor in how the NBA has looked the last 40 years.

 

[Ujfanatic]

Good is the enemy of great.

 

[Ujfanatic]

I feel like everyone has forgotten how awesome we were last season. We were doing historical ****. I mean shattering records on the regular. We had 3 all stars and the 6th man of the year. plus ingles and bogey killing it from three. Hydra. We were demolishing teams. Best net rating in the nba. One of the top net ratings of all time. That team was ****ing fantastic. It fell short for a variety of reasons. That happens some times. But that team was a contender.

I’ve been meaning to go back and analyze last season. By memory, I would say the version of the Jazz you’re describing existed for maybe a 25 - 30 game stretch in a 72 game season, and I believe the competition level wasn’t as high due to matchups and injuries/COVID. Conley and Clarkson were playing out of their minds during that stretch, which was a major part of the success. It was incredibly fun to watch!

Post all-star game it seems the team came back down to earth and then injuries hit for the last month of the season.

I don’t say any of that to discount the amazing run they had and may not be recounting that accurately, but given how things have gone since it makes me wonder how “real”/sustainable that level of play was.

 

[fishonjazz]

It can be fun in different ways to follow draft prospects, have no expectations, getting excited about watching young talent develop, etc. I still had fun in the Core 4 years. This team isn't a contender and is the opposite of fun. It's the worst situation to be in.

Kings are #30 out of thirty NBA teams. So sure, we've got them beat. But the Pistons have Cade, another top 5 pick incoming, and other young fun talent. That will only be improving over the next half decade. I'll trade what we have now for that without blinking.

Fair but its more likely that the Cade and another top 5 pick and other young fun talent never become as good as the jazz than they become better than the jazz.

 

[fishonjazz]

I’ve been meaning to go back and analyze last season. By memory, I would say the version of the Jazz you’re describing existed for maybe a 25 - 30 game stretch in a 72 game season, and I believe the competition level wasn’t as high due to matchups and injuries/COVID. Conley and Clarkson were playing out of their minds during that stretch, which was a major part of the success. It was incredibly fun to watch!

Post all-star game it seems the team came back down to earth and then injuries hit for the last month of the season.

I don’t say any of that to discount the amazing run they had and may not be recounting that accurately, but given how things have gone since it makes me wonder how “real”/sustainable that level of play was.

Fair. That season was so ****ing fun though. I wouldn't trade that season for almost anything. I had a blast last year. The clippers series sucked though. At least I was watching the clippers series while I was in Hawaii though. That helped.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Just to be clear. The highest of highs this team achieved, the bar to beat, is two wins in the second round of the playoffs.

I don’t see that as some incredible feat that usual fodder teams would be lucky to ever sniff.

 

[Pastramiking]

The idea of blowing up the Jazz is a terrible idea. How many teams wish they had 2 consistent all stars? The Jazz might need a different voice in the locker room and some new supporting players, but the idea of blowing up the core of Gobert and Mitchell is stupid.

 

[fishonjazz]

The idea of blowing up the Jazz is a terrible idea. How many teams wish they had 2 consistent all stars? The Jazz might need a different voice in the locker room and some new supporting players, but the idea of blowing up the core of Gobert and Mitchell is stupid.

I think many who want to blow it up actually agree with you. The problem is we have no assets and are in salary cap hell. That is the reason many want to blow it up I think.
If we could make some good moves to get better players around rudy and mitchell then I think most people would feel like you do. I dont think many people think we have the ability to do that though.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just to be clear. The highest of highs this team achieved, the bar to beat, is two wins in the second round of the playoffs.

I don’t see that as some incredible feat that usual fodder teams would be lucky to ever sniff.

Eh, I actually felt higher at the end of the regular season than I did at the end of the second round of the playoffs.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Every level of competition, even in the workforce, is going to have outliers that go against the expectation.

But you listed out a bunch of teams who've largely done either about as well as the Jazz the last 40 years or significantly worse.

Sacramento has made the NBA Playoffs ten times in the last forty seasons. They last made it in 2006! They've made one Western Conference Finals (2002) and never made a NBA Finals.

Charlotte (including the old Hornets, the Bobcats and the new Hornets) have made the playoffs just ten times in their history - their first season being 1988. They've been out of the first round four times in their franchise's history. They've never made it out of the semifinals and to the Eastern Conference Finals, however.

Their last playoff series win was in 2002 ... before the franchise relocated to New Orleans.

Their last actual trip to the playoffs was in 2016.

Minnesota came into the NBA a year after Charlotte. In that span, they've made the NBA playoffs 10 times as well. They've only advanced beyond the first round ONCE. In the history of the franchise, the Timberwolves have just 19 playoff wins all-time and TEN of those came in one playoff (when they made the WCF in 2004).

Milwaukee I've gone over.

Orlando had success in the 2000s with Dwight Howard, when they made the NBA Finals in a weak Eastern Conference, and I will concede they've done relatively well. But they still have zero NBA titles and have only made the playoffs twice since 2012.

Cleveland I don't think is comparable to Salt Lake, even though it does get a bad wrap.

See Cleveland for Detroit.

The big knock against Toronto is that they're a Canadian city but they're the fifth largest city in NORTH AMERICA so I just don't see it as a comparison.

Phoenix is where the Jazz have been most their history: good and yet have yet to prove it. We'll see if that changes this year.

San Antonio is an anomaly and always has been.

I think this list shows just how difficult it is to win a title in the NBA when you're not a power market. It takes a perfect storm, like with the Cavs getting LeBron to return after he went to Miami. He was a Hometown Hero who decided to come back and win it all - but there isn't anything remotely similar beyond the Jazz getting Lillard (and he's no LeBron).

The Spurs lucked out. They tanked for one season and got Duncan. Duncan saved a franchise that was very similar to the Jazz - winning Midwest Division titles, being good but just not good enough.

But the Spurs without Duncan haven't done much. Since he retired, the Spurs have had one run in the playoffs: 2017 where they made the WCF and were swept by the Warriors (oddly, a similar season as Utah's in 2007 after Stockton and Malone had retired/left, albeit a bit longer in between those seasons). Since? They've lost the first-round to the Warriors (swept), Nuggets and haven't made the playoffs.

Maybe the Jazz can get an all-time top player in NBA history through the draft. It sure worked for the Bucks too.

But all those other teams I listed out have drafted star players and have as many rings to show for it as Utah. And a lot less consistency.

The only real FA destinations are LA and Miami, if we're being honest. Maybe NY if players are willing to overlook their lousy management. Even Boston and Houston struggle getting good FAs. Dallas hasn't attracted any great FAs. Neither has Atlanta, or Denver, and so on. Who was the last great FA that Chicago signed?

The league has more parity than ever before, and small markets are going to continue to play a large role.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I think many who want to blow it up actually agree with you. The problem is we have no assets and are in salary cap hell. That is the reason many want to blow it up I think.
If we could make some good moves to get better players around rudy and mitchell then I think most people would feel like you do. I dont think many people think we have the ability to do that though.

What are the cap implication if we buyout Mike? If it doesn't hit the cap, do it. Tell him hr is on the line with very few minutes if he disagrees.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Eh, I actually felt higher at the end of the regular season than I did at the end of the second round of the playoffs.

That’s fine. Personally I’m all good on regular season success when it comes to the Jazz. We’ve done it all. Now I want postseason success. Especially now with players not caring at all, always taking days off, etc. league wide. And the Jazz are basically the poster team for ‘regular season vs postseason’ in a bad way. So it does very little for me.

 

[Sean]

The only real FA destinations are LA and Miami, if we're being honest. Maybe NY if players are willing to overlook their lousy management. Even Boston and Houston struggle getting good FAs. Dallas hasn't attracted any great FAs. Neither has Atlanta, or Denver, and so on. Who was the last great FA that Chicago signed?

The league has more parity than ever before, and small markets are going to continue to play a large role.

Those markets struggle because they're not putting out elite teams - but when they do, it becomes infinitely more easy to draw talent to Boston or Houston than I think it would be to draw talent to Salt Lake City.

Parity is fine but it's not changing the general dominance of a few select teams. Golden State STILL has a really good chance of winning the WC this year (again), especially if Booker is gimped by an injury.

Utah is just a tough cookie to crack, which makes their stability and consistency pretty impressive.

If you list out the perception of every NBA city/state based on the opinions of NBA players, I guarantee Utah is last in perception and it probably isn't close.

That hurts. It's always going to hurt. Even if parity picks up. It limits the options for the Jazz. They've got to build up through the draft, but as we've seen from the 18 or whatever teams I listed out that I feel are either worse than Utah, or equal, it's still a crapshoot about who succeeds and who doesn't.

Hell, Denver might have a two-time MVP on their roster and they're still unable to get out of the first-round these last two seasons.