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Are we even going to talk about balls?

SoberasHotRod said:
- It sounds like players like the ball, and it doesn't feel different
- Shooting is down across the league
- Maybe even if it feels the same, there are some aerodynamic differences. Potentially there is slightly more or less friction with the air causing the ball to not fall in the same precise spot the shooter is used to (after shooting millions of shots based on feel). Maybe the differences are so slight that it even makes a difference in the air currents from an empty arena to a full arena?
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Maybe all of this was designed by the NBA to level the playing field for the Lakers (a poor 3pt shooting team), and to ensure the Jazz (a great 3pt shooting team) would never make it to the NBA finals?
 
The ball makes a difference no doubt. There was this one time, at the YMCA, back in the 90's...oh wait...must...resist...urge...to... reminisce.
 
Seriously though, remember the huge uproar over the synthetic ball when they tried to introduce that. The consistency of the tools matters more than many people think, especially for pros. I knew a world-class racquetball player in college. While several of us were gushing over the new cool racquets that we had acquired, he was quietly slaughtering everyone with the racquet he had gotten from his dad that his dad played with. He would re-string it himself. Once he came and didn't have his equipment and he took one of my racquets and suddenly he was closer to human. I actually won a game against him. I've seen similar with basketballs. We always had a hard time as a high school team against certain schools, and I know part of it was a different ball. Remember the whole inflate-gate thing with the Patriots (I think it was the Patriots), who filled the balls to the low end of the spec, or something...eh I don't care about football so I don't remember it all. That kind of stuff can make a big difference especially to a game like basketball where so much of it is done subconsciously and you just expect the ball to work the way it always does.
 
When they introduced the synthetic ball players (I think Steve Nash) complained that the ball was causing cuts on his fingers.

Having owned and played with a number of the Spalding official leather balls, I will say that they take a while to break in, and since these are new, that could be half the problem. Once they are broken in, they are awesome. Spalding also had years to make manufacturing changes to perfect the ball.

When Spalding's synthetic leather manufacturer went out of business, the TF-1000 was never the same. I'd have to imagine going to a different company, in this case Wilson, is going to cause some differences between the two balls, no matter how much they try and replicate the two, whether it is microdifferences in the pebbling, leather, weight, etc. The grooves are different on the Wilson, but it is easier to grip, but this may change shot a bit depending on release. I'm guessing by year end there will be enough broken in balls and players will have adjusted to the differences to get percentages back to normal. I have watched a lot of games this year, and it does appear players are shooting the ball long at a much greater variance in last year. Of course this is anecdotal as I have no data to back this up.

When the NCAA switched to the Solution for the tournament in 2003, it sucked. During the season we played with a series of different balls, as the home team could choose the ball at the time. The solution actually made our percentages rise, but the ball wears out quickly and under the thin synthetic material is a soft rubber carcass. We hated them. Small differences on a ball can make a big difference on the court.
 
I’m desperate for anything that feels like a legit excuse for why the jazz are shooting, like, 4% on 3s over 1/10th of the ****ing season.
 
NAOS said:
I’m desperate for anything that feels like a legit excuse for why the jazz are shooting, like, 4% on 3s over 1/10th of the ****ing season.
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I keep thinking we turn it on at some point... last year we were 4th in the league in 3p% this year 26th in the league. We are about 7% off of our average from last year. It translates into 3 additional 3s per night so a 9 point swing. Attempts are similar and I don't see the foul thing being a big impact though we have had JC and Don both get caught once or twice trying to draw a foul that would have been called last year. I think it returns back to normalish but am frustrated waiting for it to happen.

If they officiate the game the same way all year I would support bringing in a great perimeter defender. My thought has been that those guys are pretty handcuffed with what they can do but I bet they are more effective now that they are allowed to use their hands. Don always got a lot of uncalled contact at the rim but now its ridiculous.
 
NAOS said:
I’m desperate for anything that feels like a legit excuse for why the jazz are shooting, like, 4% on 3s over 1/10th of the ****ing season.
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We are being defended differently this year. Teams have learned that all we do are take 3s, lob or try to drive. They've learned even their guards can be somewhat effective against Gobert, partly because we don't give him the ball, and partly because he isn't aggressive enough.

Teams have also learned to drive hard on us, Rudy doesn't appear to be the enforcer he was in the past as teams are adjusting to him. If he keeps leaving space for opponents three point shooters, the team is in trouble.

Donovan and Conley are pretty much the only player that can take advantage of the open mid-range and only Mitchell and Clarkson do a decent job penetrating . Moneyball only works if you take the shot with the highest probability for scoring taking into accounts points per score. When a team overplays you on the 3 point line, you have to figure something else out. Clarkson keeps taking contested shots, which may not be the best approach to take tough shots to get out of a slump. Hopefully Gay will help out a bit.

Hopefully this will force Snyder to adapt so the Jazz don't get destroyed by mastermind coaches like Ty Lue in the playoffs, LOL.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
We are being defended differently this year. Teams have learned that all we do are take 3s, lob or try to drive. They've learned even their guards can be somewhat effective against Gobert, partly because we don't give him the ball, and partly because he isn't aggressive enough.

Teams have also learned to drive hard on us, Rudy doesn't appear to be the enforcer he was in the past as teams are adjusting to him. If he keeps leaving space for opponents three point shooters, the team is in trouble.

Donovan and Conley are pretty much the only player that can take advantage of the open mid-range and only Mitchell and Clarkson do a decent job penetrating . Moneyball only works if you take the shot with the highest probability for scoring taking into accounts points per score. When a team overplays you on the 3 point line, you have to figure something else out. Clarkson keeps taking contested shots, which may not be the best approach to take tough shots to get out of a slump. Hopefully Gay will help out a bit.

Hopefully this will force Snyder to adapt so the Jazz don't get destroyed by mastermind coaches like Ty Lue in the playoffs, LOL.
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I'm not sure how much of this is true. We are shooting the same amount of threes. I think we honestly have two super high volume three point shooters that are way off their averages. I think we might want to mix in a few more mid range shots if they are wide open... for instance converting two or three of JC's shots right now from threes to mid paint or paint twos. Would help change our variance night to night. Teams aren't running us off the three point line... we just aren't making the threes. A lot of it is on spot ups too... not just pullups. We have enough of a sample size to know that Donovan will start making them... JC will start making them at a clip better than 17%. Bogey is in the low 30s... he will end at 40% on spot ups.

Orlando I give them a pass... they had no legs... Magic ran like crazy on them since they knew it. No Mike. If we haven't turned the shooting around in the next month or so we need to re-evaluate what we should do. The combo of shooting a ton of threes and shooting them poorly is no bueno.

I have some concerns on the defensive side but none really about Rudy. He's been great. Again... last night they had no legs and its a schedule thing. If they were maximizing regular season record they would have sat Mike versus Miami... kinda guarantees you go at least 1-1. Going 0-2 sucks but not a big deal in the grand scheme. I think Quin is getting this right. I just wish he'd also get Butler some run to get him ready. At some point I think he could function as a better version of what JC gives us. I think he can shot hunt while playing solid defense and making plays for others. It would be a full year investment and the payoff may not come until next year... but I'd do it. No Mike and JB getting zero minutes is really dumb.
 
I wonder if part of this is getting in for a few practices too. Our schedule has been brutal to open the year. 3 home 7 road... already had two back to backs. Have not had played two games in a row in the same building. There has been more travel days. When you look at our schedule compared to say the Warriors schedule it is no surprise they are 8-1... home heavy and lots of cupcakes... haven't played back to back once... yet.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I'm not sure how much of this is true. We are shooting the same amount of threes. I think we honestly have two super high volume three point shooters that are way off their averages. I think we might want to mix in a few more mid range shots if they are wide open... for instance converting two or three of JC's shots right now from threes to mid paint or paint twos. Would help change our variance night to night. Teams aren't running us off the three point line... we just aren't making the threes. A lot of it is on spot ups too... not just pullups. We have enough of a sample size to know that Donovan will start making them... JC will start making them at a clip better than 17%. Bogey is in the low 30s... he will end at 40% on spot ups.

Orlando I give them a pass... they had no legs... Magic ran like crazy on them since they knew it. No Mike. If we haven't turned the shooting around in the next month or so we need to re-evaluate what we should do. The combo of shooting a ton of threes and shooting them poorly is no bueno.

I have some concerns on the defensive side but none really about Rudy. He's been great. Again... last night they had no legs and its a schedule thing. If they were maximizing regular season record they would have sat Mike versus Miami... kinda guarantees you go at least 1-1. Going 0-2 sucks but not a big deal in the grand scheme. I think Quin is getting this right. I just wish he'd also get Butler some run to get him ready. At some point I think he could function as a better version of what JC gives us. I think he can shot hunt while playing solid defense and making plays for others. It would be a full year investment and the payoff may not come until next year... but I'd do it. No Mike and JB getting zero minutes is really dumb.
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Compared to regular season, I definitely think the Jazz are getting many fewer open 3s than last year. I haven't looked to see how many 3s are contested this year vs last, but to the eye test, it is a lot less. Gobert still gets us open shots with his screens, but our 3s look much more contested. Ingles definitely is getting contested tighter.

Other than Mitchell, you really only need to guard the paint and 3 point line. Teams have learned that. While that fits within the money ball idea, other teams, like the Jazz, struggle on defense when teams exploit wide open mid range shots, leaving teams scrambling. Utah does not do that.

I still think this team's biggest problem is defense. Orlando DEFINITELY had a lot more open 3 opportunities than we did.
 
Gameface said:
I started this thread because the Ball changed this year.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pillz right now.

Shooting percentage is DOWN in the NBA. Shooting percentage is DOWN!

But hey, how about **** that happened in 1996? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about what goes on at your local YMCA.

This thread isn't about the NBA, this thread is about you... I guess.

For ****s sake.
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Who peed in your Wheaties?
 
Bogey's shooting 30% from 3 for the season and Donovan, Clarkson, Paschall and Butler are all blow 30%. Don't know if it's the balls or what but those percentages are bound to rise as the season goes on.
 
NAOS said:
I’m desperate for anything that feels like a legit excuse for why the jazz are shooting, like, 4% on 3s over 1/10th of the ****ing season.
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I think I've figured it out... here it goes...

Basically we are 3 three point makes off of our prior year numbers. If JC was at or just below his average at his volume he accounts for one of those makes by himself. Donovan under the same kinda logic is to blame for 1 as well (close to it anyway maybe he only gets .75 instead of 1). The other three is the difference between Niang and Paschall... gap should close with Rudy Gay. The other guys when you mash them together would be close to where they were last year.

This is sacrilege and goes against everything I believe about JC, but we might want to tell him to chill from 3 point land and work a little more to get to the rim until the shot starts falling. Swap 2-3 three point attempts for drives. He still take at least one horrible one per game. So you still have the green light JC... just lay off the accelerator a little.

I'm confident Donovan will come around and he isn't as far off as JC is right now.

The wonky travel schedule has likely contributed to this a little. We haven't had a great rhythm to the season. Couple back to backs and then also two 3+ day layoffs. We have shot 34%+ 3 in the 1 day rest games and 27% in the others. I want 10 more games before I panic... right now a minor tweak to JC's shot selection.
 
Jingled said:
Bogey's shooting 30% from 3 for the season and Donovan, Clarkson, Paschall and Butler are all blow 30%. Don't know if it's the balls or what but those percentages are bound to rise as the season goes on.
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Its really JC and Donovan. Bogey is down but not too far and he doesn't shoot as many as JC and Donovan. I don't really think we should expect Paschall to be a good shooter. If the over under is set at 33% I'd lean under.
 
I do think an adjustment to the ball has something to do with it. So many high volume guys have started the season way off. Not sure there is a switch coming or if they just need to adjust.

Donovan and JC are both top 5 in 3 point attempts per minute... if both guys are struggling (one in an extreme struggle) it will throw our percentages way off. They shoot 20 threes a night combined. If they were making 35% there would be no discussion... and we'd likely be undefeated.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I do think an adjustment to the ball has something to do with it. So many high volume guys have started the season way off. Not sure there is a switch coming or if they just need to adjust.

Donovan and JC are both top 5 in 3 point attempts per minute... if both guys are struggling (one in an extreme struggle) it will throw our percentages way off. They shoot 20 threes a night combined. If they were making 35% there would be no discussion... and we'd likely be undefeated.
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DM under 30 and jc on 20%and ppl here talking about defense. And btw we getting destroyed by guards not forwards but ppl waching stats not games
 
Gameface said:
Spalding-vs-Wilson-Basketball.png


The NBA got some big new balls this year. Turns out most of the players were more comfortable with the old balls.

Did the NBA need new balls? Is it sometimes better to play with new balls vs whatever old balls you've been playing with?

Will the players ever get their stroke down with these new balls? I think we all want to see these new balls drop like the old balls did, right?

So anyway... What's up with these new balls the NBA wants to shove into our face?
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Just looking at the picture I think I would prefer the wilson. Which ones are they using this year?
 
jazzVA said:
Not exactly, they changed the cover texture of the ball a while back and the players went ape ****. The NBA switched back to the old cover material the next season. Also thanks for reminding me I’ve got 1/2 a NY Strip leftover that will work well for breakfast.
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lol
 
Jingled said:
Bogey's shooting 30% from 3 for the season and Donovan, Clarkson, Paschall and Butler are all blow 30%. Don't know if it's the balls or what but those percentages are bound to rise as the season goes on.
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And many of bogeys misses have been wide open. He is too good a shooter for that to continue
 
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