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Deleted member 848
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Billups isnt clutch? Westbrook isnt clutch? Rose isnt clutch, even though he completely destroyed Deron Williams in the last 2 mins here in Utah in Jerrys last game? Okay.
Big Al ranked 3rd best NBA center- ESPN
- Thread starter Golfman
- Start date
Billups isnt clutch? Westbrook isnt clutch? Rose isnt clutch, even though he completely destroyed Deron Williams in the last 2 mins here in Utah in Jerrys last game? Okay.
D
Deleted member 848
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Hate to post consecutive times as opposed to sandwiching it all in one, but to summarize. I just want to say that anyone who blames our losing record on Al Jefferson seriously needs their head examined. Hes our teams best scorer, did not miss a game, and played his heart out until missing the playoffs became a guarantee. He seems to exhibit more loyalty to Utah than other players despite only playing here for a season, and seemed to bring his assists and blocks up as the season progressed.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Is anyone blaming our losing record on Al Jefferson alone? I doubt it. But the topic of this thread was whether Jefferson warranted a #3 rating among centers, not whether he was the sole (or even primary) culprit for the Jazz winning woes.
As has been brilliantly pointed out, this ranking appears to ignore (at least partially) defense, as evidenced by the writer not even mentioning D in the description of AJ. Heck, he barely mentioned defense when describing Dwight Howard. That's what you call incomplete journalism. It's as if Boozer himself had ghostwritten the entire article.
His defense--even before the playoff hopes dimmed--did not equate to playing his heart out. I agree that he is a formidable offensive player, and that he improved significantly on offense over the season. But the C spot needs to be able to defend, perhaps more so than scoring, given that most title teams had a legit defender at the 5 (including this year's champions.)
Loyalty? Look where that got us--keeping on a coach who did help to build the franchise but failed to win a ring and, in recent years especially, wasn't even able to enforce his own philosophy, while other coaches who could do so were hired elsewhere and took their teams to contention. The loyalty (and perhaps cost-savings) continued by hiring from within. While I wish Corbin all the best now that he's here, I have not seen that things have changed yet.
It is another positive for Big Al that his passing and blocks have risen. However, blocks are only a part of defense. Gotta protect the paint, and gotta not rest from your awesome offensive performance while you're playing D.
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Deleted member 848
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Its good that you aren't, but there have been other threads where posters blame our collapse on the addition of such a slack-defending center, even though hes arguably just as good if not better than Memo. Do I think hes currently a #3 Center? No, in fact in if you check this thread https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?6868-Big-Al-Working-Hard/page5 you will see that I think he at this point could only slightly crack the top ten if you argue enough about it. What my point with these posts is that people who rip on Al, and the fact that we dont need him due to his lack of wins in his past teams seems like a ridiculous criticism to me, along with the whole "black-hole" terminology and the lack of foresight to see how much he has improved over a season alone. To me, it seems very possible that Al Jefferson will not only up his assist totals (Imagine having the ball in your hands, looking away from the basket and seeing Watson, Bell, and Kirilenko on the perimeter; no surprise that Al decided going ISO instead usually) after having players like Burks Hayward Harris and Favors emerging. Also, His blocking capabilities coupled with Favors' stellar defense makes for quite the decent PF/C combo on both sides of the court. Does he have what it takes to become a top 5 Center? Absolutely.
Again, I never said Al should be #3
You're right, were better off signing players who dont exhibit loyalty. Im not even goint to start on your Sloan criticism.
I remember reading that Al Jefferson was one of the better On-Ball Defending centers of the NBA. Perhaps having Favors next to him to help with Defense would mean he would have to worry less about switching, and more to sticking to his man. His blocking prowess would prove to be an effective last line of defense if Favors is beaten. So quite frankly, his blocing prowess coupled with our rising future PF could prove beneficial. And in all honesty if Kanter does develop to become better than Al Jefferson, we just spent 1-2 years raising his stock so we can trade him for enough bench players to make a deep playoff run. It makes most sense to develop Al Jefferson this upcoming season as our rookies ease into their roles. Let them fight for a roster spot; losers get traded for other pieces, or delegated to the bench.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Yes, and all it takes is effort--and perhaps the coaching staff enforcing the effort. And that's why Fes (and Elson, too, and maybe Kanter next year) should be/have been used as short-term subs when AJ was dogging it, so that he knows that his playing time isn't guaranteed.
. . .
Compared to on-court effectiveness (or on-bench effectiveness, in the case of coaches), loyalty is overrated. What did loyalty to AK get us? A bloated contract probably costing 2x its true value. Loyalty to Karl Malone? Maybe a few million savings here and then, and then a one-way ticket to the Lakers. Loyalty to John Stockton? Significant savings. But there's only one John Stockton. Loyalty to Jerry Sloan? 20+ years of playoff appearances, but unfortunately the Jazz's potential was higher than that when they carried two of the top 50 players of all time for many of those years.
Let Al Jefferson "develop"? Isn't nearly 3,000 minutes this year alone (nearly thrice the playing time of Fesenko for his entire career) enough time to "develop"?Sinking ship Dalamon said:
Develop, schmevelop. Jefferson is 26 years old and a 7-year veteran. With a player of such experience, it's time to enforce effectiveness, not just develop it. Dogging it on D is not a developmental issue; it's an effort issue, enforceable (possibly) by benching for one whistle (and maybe a good tongue-lashing to boot, in honor of what Jerry Sloan should've done to Carlos Boozer a few times).
If you remember reading that Al Jefferson was a good on-ball defender, it didn't come from here:
This professional sportswriter combined data and game film to form an opinion--what a concept!Tim Kawakami (beat writer for the Golden State Warriors) said:
In response to your claim, I just found this article now; I wasn't expecting to find a source that put Jefferson at dead worst in D. Congrats on beating out Amare Stoudemire for the honors, Big Al; that's not an easy thing to do.
If any coach would be thought to bench a player for giving up an easy basket, it's Jerry Sloan (and hopefully his trained successor). But behind the hard-nosed image, Ol' Jer was an unsophisticated leader and strategist who couldn't even put his own mantra into motion. And Utah held onto him for 3 to 5 years too long.
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High Plains Drifter
New Member
Got to put Chandler #2. Little offense, but his D is a game changer, as season changer even, as we saw with the Mavs.
orangello
Well-Known Member
Wow, thanks for the hard numbers on Jefferson. I didn't have any idea what they were. This makes things even more clear.
Also, I wanted to mention that you make a lot of good points.
Ha ha I agree with Scorpjazz lets keep Big Al and send Millsap packing! And to InGameStrategy who is the heck is Tim Kawakami (beat writer for the Golden State Warriors), on May 15, 2011. That material is just about as good as BleacherReports.com! Did he not watch any G.S. games? Did he not see David Lee?
And it's stupid to agrue about Big Al right now anyways. The dude makes 14 Million and who really are you going to trade Big Al for? That what I thought...Kyle Lowry, Kevin Martin for Big AL? But then you would create a bigger problem having another lottery player sitting on the bench, Alex B. The best thing I think that will happen, Utah will trade Millsap for a backup pg, something like Dragic, Budinger for Millsap and then resign AK
Harris, Dragic
Burk, Miles
Hayward, Budinger
Favors, AK
Jefferson, Kanter
And it's stupid to agrue about Big Al right now anyways. The dude makes 14 Million and who really are you going to trade Big Al for? That what I thought...Kyle Lowry, Kevin Martin for Big AL? But then you would create a bigger problem having another lottery player sitting on the bench, Alex B. The best thing I think that will happen, Utah will trade Millsap for a backup pg, something like Dragic, Budinger for Millsap and then resign AK
Harris, Dragic
Burk, Miles
Hayward, Budinger
Favors, AK
Jefferson, Kanter
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Yes, he did. And he put David Lee on the second NBA all-worst defense team last year.
https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...am-starring-turkoglu-maggette-and-jeff-green/
Kawakami says the same types of thing about David Lee that has been said about Boozer: you gotta pair him with a defensive big.
https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...reg-monroe-and-avoided-david-lee-last-summer/
But Millsap shouldn't be Jefferson's defensive big; PM's too short. Okur isn't a defensive big, either. Fesenko could've been, but he wasn't given enough court time. Kanter might be--three years from now. Jefferson, like Boozer, has the ability to defend, but his focus on defense must be enforced.
I for one am not talking about trading Jefferson. He can be a cornerstone. It sounds like he's working out during the lockout. But I just want to see a Jazz coach enforce effectiveness. And the best way to do that is often to bench a player--briefly first, longer if it doesn't work. Coaches rarely do that--not even Sloan did, and I'm not sure if he was consciously giving players a free pass or was oblivious to their defensive liabilities. Quite possibly it was a combination of the two, after Stockton & Malone required no butt-kicking whatsoever.
Unload Millsap just in order to re-sign an aging Kirilenko? I'm not so sure. Let Millsap continue to get more comfortable as a small forward and continue to give him 20+ MPG as a 3/4 player. Depending on matchups.
Haven't we tried the AK-at-the-4 experiment enough? Do you really think that Kiri would be more effective as a backup 4 than Millsap?
Care to ever explain why besides 'BIG AL IS BIG'?
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
I really have no reason to explain anything. You already know all that he brings to the team. You choose to dwell on the negatives, which there are some. Others agree with you. I dont. Pretty simple.
When I mentioned earlier to trade Sap, I dont mean for a back up PG. I think at this time, his value is a bit higher than that. If he gets put on the bench with all the bigs we have, is value slips. He is a very good player, but most of what he brings we can get from others who are BIGGER.
When I mentioned earlier to trade Sap, I dont mean for a back up PG. I think at this time, his value is a bit higher than that. If he gets put on the bench with all the bigs we have, is value slips. He is a very good player, but most of what he brings we can get from others who are BIGGER.
Coloradojazzfan
Active Member
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
We THINK we can get from others who are bigger. Right now, Kanter hasn't played a minute. Favors has played well in flashes, but not consistently. We KNOW Millsap (and Jefferson) are each capable of averaging nearly 20/10 across an entire season.
Kanter and Favors certainly have a ton of potential, but any trades would be premature. Besides, you need at least 3 to form a good rotation at the 4/5 and 4 is preferable in case of injuries, foul trouble and even matchups. Imagine trading Millsap, having Favors go down and then having to rely on a scrub like Elson to play 30 mins/per. I'm not counting on Okur. It's doubtful he comes back at even 75% of what he was. And even at that, he's only under contract for another year. There's room on the team for 4 bigs. Sure, if they're all healthy for all 82 games, PT will be a bit of an issue. You can work around that, though, keeping a couple of them fresher for the second night of back-to-backs, etc.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
Good points for sure.
I am not saying trade Sap for the sake of it. IF we can get something else we need more than what he brings, then do it. I love Sap and he is a great part of the team. Just saying, IMO, out of the bigs, if they gotta move someone I think it should be him.
I am not saying trade Sap for the sake of it. IF we can get something else we need more than what he brings, then do it. I love Sap and he is a great part of the team. Just saying, IMO, out of the bigs, if they gotta move someone I think it should be him.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
Instead of choosing to respond to every piece of pseudo-intellegent jargon you spew forth, Ill just leave you with the link of the thread that I did, in fact. read HERE at Jazzfanz:
https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?5586-Al-Jefferson-second-best-big-defender-in-NBA
(link to website that did the rating: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?5586-Al-Jefferson-second-best-big-defender-in-NBA)
Note: Earlier in my previous post, I talked about Al Jefferson being a above-par ON-BALL defender. Don't try and ding me by saying that it doesnt account for team defense, one step ahead of ya.
Lakers_Slapper
Well-Known Member
If its not worth your time, hmm,,, .............. WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THE TIME TO REPLY???
Lakers_Slapper
Well-Known Member
You would take Bynum? Really? The same Andrew Bynum that got ejected out of the playoffs game for a disgusting cheap shot and when escorted off the court, took off his jersey acting like a hard ***? (When really it appeared he was pouting like a 4 year old child?) You want him on the Jazz over Jefferson? Do you even watch basketball????