Big Al to Orlando?

[YB85]

No one, anywhere, is confused about what the Sap offer meant: The Jazz could only offer him a contract that is well under his value. So it's a no-brainer to offer him that, and it would have been disrespectful not to. It's completely meaningless outside the thin hope he might actually sign it.

With Al, there is no way to set parameters on a deal. They can't offer him 3 years at 24. And Al knows his real value is from having the 4/5 year options in FA. So each side is well aware that those negotiations will happen after next season.

You're reading stuff into this that is a total distortion of what's going on.

Besides the fact that Jefferson doesn't do anything to help the Jazz win meaningful games, this is another reason they should be looking to trade him. Let some other team deal with the decision of whether his 19 and 9 really justifies a contract or if his warts that have been addressed ad nauseum make it easy to let him walk.

 

[Scorpjazz]

but everybody found out about the paul offer?

Yes, I can see KOC doing just that for damage control later on. He is clever like that.

 

[Scorpjazz]

Besides the fact that Jefferson doesn't do anything to help the Jazz win meaningful games, this is another reason they should be looking to trade him. Let some other team deal with the decision of whether his 19 and 9 really justifies a contract or if his warts that have been addressed ad nauseum make it easy to let him walk.

So all the wins he leads us to must be the non meaningful ones? He has less 'off nights' than any other player we have.

 

[YB85]

So all the wins he leads us to must be the non meaningful ones? He has less 'off nights' than any other player we have.

The Jazz were 32-29 with him in the lineup and 4-1 without him, including a road win against the Lakers. Of those 32 wins, there was only one time I thought "Al won that game" and that was the Phoenix game at the end of the season. But hey, he has "less 'off nights'" so that's all that matters. For $15M per year, what more could you want?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Since our new GM is from San Antonio, I'd hope the guy would have enough sense to realize that Al is a ****ing hack who was scorched by his former employer on the PnR play after play and that unless we can keep him for about 8-9M per year, he needs to be the odd man out.

 

[YB85]

Since our new GM is from San Antonio, I'd hope the guy would have enough sense to realize that Al is a ****ing hack who was scorched by his former employer on the PnR play after play and that unless we can keep him for about 8-9M per year, he needs to be the odd man out.

I don't think he is worth $8-9M per year to a team that wants to compete. Right now, I view him as little more than an obstacle to Favors getting on the floor. The Jazz could give him away and not miss him. His 19 and 9 are fools' gold.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I don't think he is worth $8-9M per year to a team that wants to compete. Right now, I view him as little more than an obstacle to Favors getting on the floor. The Jazz could give him away and not miss him. His 19 and 9 are fools' gold.

While I agree (that he'll very likely never be a main guy on a contender), Al at 8-9M per year is a very solid asset to then flip.

 

[One Brow]

that's exactly what i was going to say... if paul isn't part of the jazz's future plan but al is, why didn't al get a meeting to discuss extension offers? they didn't have to offer him a max extension, they could have invited him in and offered him the same amount they offered paul... but they didn't. that should speak volumes.

Isn't there a limit on how much of a salary decrease you can offer in an extension?

 

[theNBAnerd]

Isn't there a limit on how much of a salary decrease you can offer in an extension?

no there's actually not. you can extend a guy for less than his current salary, there's nothing that restricts teams from extending a guy who makes $15M per season to a 3 year, $30M extension. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58

but that's beside the point. my point is that, with paul, they knew they couldn't lock him down with what they were willing to offer, but they still had him come in and talk because there's value in the symbolic gesture that says, "we want to make sure you know that you're part of our future and we'll continue talking next july."

with al, no such conversation occurred. or if one occurred, the jazz did their level best to keep that conversation quiet EVEN WHILE THEY WERE LEAKING THE PAUL NEWS. that should tell us volumes.

 

[theNBAnerd]

The Jazz were 32-29 with him in the lineup and 4-1 without him, including a road win against the Lakers. Of those 32 wins, there was only one time I thought "Al won that game" and that was the Phoenix game at the end of the season. But hey, he has "less 'off nights'" so that's all that matters. For $15M per year, what more could you want?

awesome post. also, scorp and i must have different definitions of off-nights. when al scores 21 points on 22 shots (orlando) or 18 points on 18 shots (the phoenix game YB mentions) or 11 points on 14 shots (at portland), i don't consider those as necessarily being "on" nights. check out his game log and you'll see that his season was FULL of nights where he only scored because he took as many shots as he netted points. sorry, but 19 points on 23 shots (@SAS) is an off-night.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

no there's actually not. you can extend a guy for less than his current salary, there's nothing that restricts teams from extending a guy who makes $15M per season to a 3 year, $30M extension. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58

but that's beside the point. my point is that, with paul, they knew they couldn't lock him down with what they were willing to offer, but they still had him come in and talk because there's value in the symbolic gesture that says, "we want to make sure you know that you're part of our future and we'll continue talking next july."

with al, no such conversation occurred. or if one occurred, the jazz did their level best to keep that conversation quiet EVEN WHILE THEY WERE LEAKING THE PAUL NEWS. that should tell us volumes.

I think OneBrow was asking about the year over year decrease...we couldn't extend a guy for three years with salaries of 15M, then 10M, then 5M...

 

[silesian]

different hypothesis

By offering Millsap an extension but not Al, it is clear that Al is not part of the teams future plans at this time..

I would respectfully disagree. The Jazz knew full well that Millsap would decline the extension offer, so they had nothing to lose by this move. If they had not offered the extension, it could have been perceived by Paul to be a bad signal from the Jazz, and he could question whether he is possibly part of the Jazz plans 2013 forward

 

[theNBAnerd]

I think OneBrow was asking about the year over year decrease...we couldn't extend a guy for three years with salaries of 15M, then 10M, then 5M...

ah gotcha.

Coon: Typically a salary can decrease by the same amount it can increase. For example, since the Larry Bird exception limits raises to 7.5% of the first-year salary, the salary may also decrease by up to 7.5% of the first-year salary.

https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q53

 

[billyshelby]

no there's actually not. you can extend a guy for less than his current salary, there's nothing that restricts teams from extending a guy who makes $15M per season to a 3 year, $30M extension. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58

but that's beside the point. my point is that, with paul, they knew they couldn't lock him down with what they were willing to offer, but they still had him come in and talk because there's value in the symbolic gesture that says, "we want to make sure you know that you're part of our future and we'll continue talking next july."

with al, no such conversation occurred. or if one occurred, the jazz did their level best to keep that conversation quiet EVEN WHILE THEY WERE LEAKING THE PAUL NEWS. that should tell us volumes.

This is asinine logic. There is no logical reason NOT to offer Paul an extension that is well below his value. And putting it out in the press that they officially offered him an deal he would never accept is just gravy. So the fact that they did the only logical thing they could have done on multiple fronts is utterly meaningless to their future plans. Leaking news? There's no way you're so naive that you think anything about Paul's "negotiation" was leaked. It was just an easy decision all around.

Say the Jazz had the right to offer Paul 13 million a season for 3 years. Do you honestly think they would have a 'negotiation session' with him? The answer is just no. His leverage in a 3 year deal (without the current CBA constraints) is far greater than it would be in a 4 year deal, much less in a Bird Rights Deal. So there's no way they would have been giddyup to offer Paul 30 for 3 (which could have been perceived as insulting) or 33 for 3 (which is where it starts getting heavy). Better to lay off and read him the boilerplate: "We want you back, we'll negotiate after the year is over, and hopefully we can convince you to stay" (whether they actually mean it or not.)

THAT's the situation they're in with Al. They can't offer the guy a drastic pay cut...now...and expect it to go over. And like Sap, Al would command a premium to sign for only 3 years instead of 4 (or potentially 5). Since Al's value is impossible to gauge, he already got read the boilerplate. With Paul, it's a simple formulaic play with the upside of signing a guy under value if he bites, but with the realization he'll never sign it and you did what you had to do from a PR standpoint. There's no way you don't get this no matter how much you want to spin it into something else.

 

[billyshelby]

Besides the fact that Jefferson doesn't do anything to help the Jazz win meaningful games, this is another reason they should be looking to trade him. Let some other team deal with the decision of whether his 19 and 9 really justifies a contract or if his warts that have been addressed ad nauseum make it easy to let him walk.

This is all separate logic. I don't know what Al is worth, but I understand why the Jazz wouldn't bother negotiating with him on an extension at this point. His value is very unclear for the reasons you stated (though I disagree with the 'meaningful games' thesis.) And whether they should trade him is also outside my point. I've got no problem trading anybody we have not named Favors.

My point is about Nerd's assessment that the Jazz offering Paul the only ludicrous offer they could as being meaningful to their thinking. Paul's obligatory "offer" and Al's equally obligatory "non-offer" have exactly the same meaning as to what they're thinking -- nothing.

 

[Fishsticks]

no there's actually not. you can extend a guy for less than his current salary, there's nothing that restricts teams from extending a guy who makes $15M per season to a 3 year, $30M extension. https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58

but that's beside the point. my point is that, with paul, they knew they couldn't lock him down with what they were willing to offer, but they still had him come in and talk because there's value in the symbolic gesture that says, "we want to make sure you know that you're part of our future and we'll continue talking next july."

with al, no such conversation occurred. or if one occurred, the jazz did their level best to keep that conversation quiet EVEN WHILE THEY WERE LEAKING THE PAUL NEWS. that should tell us volumes.

Do you believe in aliens, the new world order and wizards?

 

[Stifle Tower]

Do you believe in aliens, the new world order and wizards?

1. Yes, we have many aliens here in California, almost all of them here illegally.
2. New World Order began two years ago and was mostly completed this past week: 1) Miami, 2) Los Angeles, 3) Brooklyn.
High level talks are still ongoing to discuss ways to deal with the OKC threat. It's already been decided to just let the aging process take care of SA.
3. Wizards. They play in Washington, but are not part of the NWO.

 

[TheSilencer1313]

Why?

Because Kanter is not ready, and Favors isn't big enough to play 30+ mins at the center.
Not to mention, it's quite obvious KOC was building this team around Big Al's post game (and hopefully Favors post game eventually).
I fully expect Al to play out the rest of his contract, and re-sign with the Jazz next season.

 

[TheSilencer1313]

1. Yes, we have many aliens here in California, almost all of them here illegally.
2. New World Order began two years ago and was mostly completed this past week: 1) Miami, 2) Los Angeles, 3) Brooklyn.
High level talks are still ongoing to discuss ways to deal with the OKC threat. It's already been decided to just let the aging process take care of SA.
3. Wizards. They play in Washington, but are not part of the NWO.

You clearly forgot the Charlotte Bobcats, and Scott Hall.

 

[YB85]

Not to mention, it's quite obvious KOC was building this team around Big Al's post game

He may as well also tried to build the team around Burks' outside shooting, Hayward's intimidation, and Millsap's midseason dependability.