Bin Laden is dead

[One Brow]

You know what? I agree with you in that if OBL surrendered, then they capture him and take him somewhere to extract all information from him that they can. But I also think that if he did not immediately indicate that he was surrendering, a bullet to the head was his just reward.

Group hug! Seriously, I agree completely here.

When they send the SEALs in, they're not going in to simply arrest someone. Is it that hard to understand?

I fully admit I have no military training. However, those I have spoken to, and most of those I read on message boards, who have such training claim (when the topic is brought up) that when a person surrenders, they are taken prisoner. I don't think that would be different for SEALs, but perhpas you have some knowledge of them I don't?

At any rate, I am 99% certain Osama was not executed. It's still important to raise the question.

 

[One Brow]

Agreed. It is a different context, but that deserves severe concern as well. Bin Laden had plenty of time to store weapons in easily accessible places and booby-trap the compound to his desire.

If he had a weapon, he wouldn't have been unarmed. If the compound was booby-trapped, any putative execution does not disarm the traps.

These guys were putting themselves right in the middle of the snake pit and need to treat it as such. With the way he planned his other terrorist acts one could reasonably assume he had a contingency plan on what would happen if he were ever cornered, and how he would not be taken. I would not expect anyone in that situation to give Bin Laden any chance to take the fight to them. Remember, Bin Laden himself dictated the terms for how he would be dealt with. Reaffirmed with his constant threats of murdering as many Americans as possible and never being taken alive.

Also something else to ponder. "Unarmed" can mean many things. If I have no weapons on me, yet am running towards an RPG or AK-47, technically I am unarmed.

I have no quarrel with any of that. I support a full debriefing, which will almost certainly confirm it. Outside of that, you're not actually addressing the one, very-unlikely-but-possible scenario that needs to be definitively ruled out.

 

[TroutBum]

He means he is hung like a seal, but she wasn't very well hung to begin with.

 

[PearlWatson]

It is also interesting, even a little disturbing, how up in arms people get about international law in terms of torturing terrorists to get intel to stop future attacks and how absolutely fine people would be in completely ignoring international law to shoot one in the head to stop future attacks. So torture=bad, murder=good in terms of stopping terrorist attacks.

Right on the money.

 

[PearlWatson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqoMgUkefXw&feature=player_embedded

Who is Dunlap and who wants to be Jackie?

"Obama should only be in charge of things that suck like health care and Joe Biden!" LOL

I liked, "Everything is a conspiracy when you don’t know what the hell is going on!" LOL!

 

[LogGrad98]

Bin Laden is not the only member or leader of Al Qaida. The war isn't over yet.

Retaliation attacks begin.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110513/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

SHABQADAR, Pakistan – A pair of suicide bombers attacked recruits leaving a paramilitary training center in Pakistan on Friday, killing 80 people in the first retaliation for the killing of Osama bin Laden by American commandos. The Taliban claimed responsibility, blaming the Pakistani military for failing to stop the U.S. raid.

"We have done this to avenge the Abbottabad incident," Ahsanullah Ahsan, a spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban, told The Associated Press in a phone call. He warned that the group was also planning attacks on Americans living inside Pakistan.

The bombers blew themselves up in Shabqadar at the main gate of the facility for the Frontier Constabulary, a poorly equipped but front-line force in the battle against al-Qaida and allied Islamist groups like the Pakistani Taliban close to the Afghan border. Like other branches of Pakistan's security forces, it has received U.S. funding to try to sharpen its skills.

At least 80 people were killed, including 66 recruits, and around 120 people were wounded, said police officer Liaqat Ali Khan.

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

Retaliation attacks begin.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110513/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

Yes I can see why Pakistan would want to have a military conflict with the US over one guy. More sound logic.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Retaliation attacks begin.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110513/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

As long as the retaliation attacks are Pakistani Taliban, carried out against Pakistan soldiers, inside Pakistan, does anybody here, or I guess I should ask SHOULD anybody here even care?

Hopefully whatever intel they got from Bin Laden's house will lead to a final, crushing blow that ends Al Queda once and for all. But as far as Pakistani Taliban attacking Pakistani soldiers, you reap what you sew.

They let these guys pretty much have free reign in their country (Bin Laden lived in the biggest mansion in town, with 15 foot high concrete walls surrounding the place, barbed wire on top of the walls, no phone or internet connections, and burned all the trash, a mile away from a military installation in a military town, for at least 5 years). So if they don't want to deal with them, that's their problem.

We can't get stuck fighting an endless battle to save Pakistan. We should watch what happens their very carefully though and if the Taliban takes over then go in and destroy all the nukes. But we can't be the protectors of Pakistan just because they let things get out of control.

 

[Gameface]

Killing Bin Laden is not even remotely close to the same thing (or nearly as bad) as torturing everyone we interrogate.

Much like your poker games being illegal doesn't mean you have no integrity when you speak out against a murderer/rapist/burglar/car thief/drug dealer/etc.

No, but if I actively tried to prevent and have other people prosecuted for having poker games in their basements, while still rationalizing why it is okay for me to do it, then I would have no integrity. If I took a stand that all people should obey all laws (I'm not) but still felt justified breaking them when I had what I felt was a good reason to, then I would have no integrity.

Either it is okay to capture someone and then shoot them while they're helpless or it isn't. You can't say that it's bad almost all the time, unless what the person did disgusted us so much that we needed the emotional satisfaction of executing him more than we needed to abide by our own standards of conduct. When it's all over don't tell yourself that you DID abide by your own standards. Have the integrity to admit that what happened was in fact a violation of your standards.

It's when reality and morality become completely subjective that we loose our integrity.

in·teg·ri·ty   
[in-teg-ri-tee] Show IPA
–noun
1.
adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2.
the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3.
a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

 

[SaltyDawg]

No, but if I actively tried to prevent and have other people prosecuted for having poker games in their basements, while still rationalizing why it is okay for me to do it, then I would have no integrity. If I took a stand that all people should obey all laws (I'm not) but still felt justified breaking them when I had what I felt was a good reason to, then I would have no integrity.

Either it is okay to capture someone and then shoot them while they're helpless or it isn't. You can't say that it's bad almost all the time, unless what the person did disgusted us so much that we needed the emotional satisfaction of executing him more than we needed to abide by our own standards of conduct. When it's all over don't tell yourself that you DID abide by your own standards. Have the integrity to admit that what happened was in fact a violation of your standards.

It's when reality and morality become completely subjective that we loose our integrity.

People get executed in the USA all the time. Helpless people, strapped down to tables, swearing they are innocent with their last breath.

It is not a case of not meeting your own standards. The death penalty is actually illegal in many countries, but this country isn't one of them.

 

[Scat]

A brief snippet on GWB's response when told of bin Laden's death.

George W. Bush disclosed more of how he heard about the death of Osama bin Laden at a conference Wednesday in Las Vegas. According to the ABC News report, Bush said he was at a restaurant with his wife and two friends when he got the news.

"I excused myself and went home to take the call," Bush said. "Obama simply said 'Osama Bin Laden is dead.'"

Bush said Obama described in detail the secret mission to raid bin Laden's Pakistani compound and the decision he made to put the plan into motion. He told Obama, "Good call."

Bush also said, according to ABC, that he was "not overjoyed" to hear of bin Laden's death because the campaign was about exacting justice, not a hate-filled mission of revenge.

 

[LogGrad98]

No, but if I actively tried to prevent and have other people prosecuted for having poker games in their basements, while still rationalizing why it is okay for me to do it, then I would have no integrity. If I took a stand that all people should obey all laws (I'm not) but still felt justified breaking them when I had what I felt was a good reason to, then I would have no integrity.

Either it is okay to capture someone and then shoot them while they're helpless or it isn't. You can't say that it's bad almost all the time, unless what the person did disgusted us so much that we needed the emotional satisfaction of executing him more than we needed to abide by our own standards of conduct. When it's all over don't tell yourself that you DID abide by your own standards. Have the integrity to admit that what happened was in fact a violation of your standards.

It's when reality and morality become completely subjective that we loose our integrity.

This.

 

[One Brow]

On the contribution and effects of "enhanced interrogation":

https://blogs.forbes.com/oshadavids...gator-torture-talk-puts-troops-lives-at-risk/

 

[Scat]

On the contribution and effects of "enhanced interrogation":

https://blogs.forbes.com/oshadavids...gator-torture-talk-puts-troops-lives-at-risk/

 

[Scat]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday.

The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.

The officials said they were not yet sure precisely where in the compound the pornography was discovered or who had been viewing it. Specifically, the officials said they did not know if bin Laden himself had acquired or viewed the materials.

Reports from Abbottabad have said that bin Laden's compound was cut off from the Internet or other hard-wired communications networks. It is unclear how compound residents would have acquired the pornography.

But a video released by the Obama administration confiscated from the compound showed bin Laden watching pictures of himself on a TV screen, indicating that the compound was equipped with video playback equipment.

Materials carted away from the compound by the U.S. commandos included digital thumb drives, which U.S. officials believe may have been a principal means by which couriers carried electronic messages to and from the late al Qaeda leader.

Three other U.S. officials familiar with evidence gathered during investigations of other Islamic militants said the discovery of pornography is not uncommon in such cases.

 

[SaltyDawg]

On the subject of water boarding...

Did any of you guys see John McCain's comments the other day?

He said it's a flat out lie that water boarding helped lead to Bin Laden. KSM never gave us the lead to Bin Laden, actually gave us false info, and the lead that eventually got us Bin Laden came from some other country who was interrogating someone else using traditional methods.

He also said when someone is being tortured they will say whatever they think their captors want to hear in order to make it stop, whether it's true or not.

 

[Bronco70]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday.

The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.

The officials said they were not yet sure precisely where in the compound the pornography was discovered or who had been viewing it. Specifically, the officials said they did not know if bin Laden himself had acquired or viewed the materials.

Reports from Abbottabad have said that bin Laden's compound was cut off from the Internet or other hard-wired communications networks. It is unclear how compound residents would have acquired the pornography.

But a video released by the Obama administration confiscated from the compound showed bin Laden watching pictures of himself on a TV screen, indicating that the compound was equipped with video playback equipment.

Materials carted away from the compound by the U.S. commandos included digital thumb drives, which U.S. officials believe may have been a principal means by which couriers carried electronic messages to and from the late al Qaeda leader.

Three other U.S. officials familiar with evidence gathered during investigations of other Islamic militants said the discovery of pornography is not uncommon in such cases.

So KEK is an Islamic militant. I knew it!

 

[TroutBum]

So KEK is an Islamic militant. I knew it!

This actually explains quite a bit.

 

[One Brow]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday.

An absence of pornography would have been more of a surprise.

 

[PearlWatson]

On the subject of water boarding...

Did any of you guys see John McCain's comments the other day?

He said it's a flat out lie that water boarding helped lead to Bin Laden. KSM never gave us the lead to Bin Laden, actually gave us false info, and the lead that eventually got us Bin Laden came from some other country who was interrogating someone else using traditional methods.

He also said when someone is being tortured they will say whatever they think their captors want to hear in order to make it stop, whether it's true or not.

What other country and what were their "traditional methods?"

McCain has personal reasons to deny the effectiveness of "intense interrogations."

How does he know? and why does his version of events contradict other versions.