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Building around Williams was a mistake, time to move on

Big mistake dude. Yeah... Ok, your mom was the last one in your life trying to build on anyone with talent. And it didn't work.

But then again, you didn't have any talent, whereas, dwill does.

I'm not sure your logic is sound.
 
The-Joker said:
You fools.... you are mistaking the smallest person on the team for being the floor general.

Kobe is the floor general... chock up 5 championships for him
Wade was the floor general... chock up a championship for him.
San Antonio's team's strategy has to deal with ball movement, not creating a specific floor general but allotting equal importance to every position, and they've always had great ball moving big men opening up more opportunities for the slashers. That equates to 4 championships for them.
Billups was the floor general on one championship team, but also he was the floor general on another finals team and 4 more teams too make it to the conference finals. He is an elite point guard, don't kid yourself.
MJ and Pippen were the floor generals in the great bulls teams, Pippen usually brought the ball up the floor.

Don't kid yourself... the floor general is the most important position, and we have a damn good one. But yes a floor general is nothing without talent, and we may not have enough, and maybe we do. There are not many players a team would rather have then Deron... Lebron, Kobe, Dwayne Wade and maybe Durant (I'd say his impact is equal to Deron)... thats about it... anybody else isn't going to bring a championship to Utah in place of Deron.
Dwight Howard- he's good, but he's shut down constantly, he won't be a champion until he has a good floor general.
Carmello- seriously?
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Great post.
MJ and Kobe (and Wade) always had the ball in their hands. But all those guys put up huge numbers, but had nothing to show for it until two additional great players were added to the team. MJ had Pippen, Rodman and a fantastic role players. Wade needed Shaq. Kobe needed Shaq and then Gasol. He even needed the veteran leadership of Fisher to put them over the top.

I agree a great center is >>> than an all-star PG. But how many franchise centers are out there - 4 or 5? And what chance does Utah have at acquiring any of those? ZERO.

Utah's only hope is followig the Detroit model. If you can't get 3 superstars, then you better have five very good starters and good depth down to the 8th/9th players. Just my opinion, but I don't thik Miami will be as good as everyone thinks. So you give LBJ, Wade and Bosh 25 pts each. Then what? Those guys can't play 48 mins/per. They'll have a weak bench and two other average starters. They've got to hope a couple of aging vets sign on just to play for a title (like Malone tried to do with the Lakers). As much as I hate LA, I don't see Miami getting past the Lakers.

Back to the topic, I think the plan is to go with Deron and Hayward at the 1-2. Those guys are big enough to create mismatches at theor positions. Then you need to parlay AK's expiring into a great starting SF (or starting PF). Add a solid center, somehow - maybe a team wants to dump salary and you can give them Boozer's TPE at the deadline. Or maybe it's Dalembert as a FA next year or Tomic.
 
The-Joker said:
You fools.... you are mistaking the smallest person on the team for being the floor general.

Kobe is the floor general... chock up 5 championships for him
Wade was the floor general... chock up a championship for him...MJ and Pippen were the floor generals in the great bulls teams, Pippen usually brought the ball up the floor.
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That is exactly the point - great wing players do not need a great PG, they can handle and distribute the ball AND provide the scoring punch at the same time. So why pay the max to a great PG then? A passable point would suffice, and the money saved could be used to sign a max wing player. DWill, supposedly a great floor general, is a 16.7 PPG career scorer. While a premier shooting guard would give you the services of a floor general AND 25+ PPG.

I would be OK with having DWill for 6-8 million, not for the max.

One of the reasons why Phil is such a great coach is that he realized long time ago that he does not need an elite or even a good PG to win championships. That is why despite all the jokes about Fisher and Farmar the Lakers kept adding the depth at other positions. Who fears Nash or Deron in the playoffs? Their opponents worried much more about containing Stoudemire, Nowitzki and Boozer.
 
Lord of Turnovers said:
I would be OK with having DWill for 6-8 million, not for the max.
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Heh, ya would, eh? Well, now, aint that special? I bet most GM's agree witcha there. I bet even more agree that they would be "OK," with having him for $1.2 million a year, not for the max, ya know?
 
"I would be OK with having DWill for 6-8 million, not for the max."

You mean Travis Outlaw type money? Get out of town.... you are too generous!
 
Larry Brown said recently that he considered Williams to be one of the top five players in the game. To avoid any kinda misunderstandin, he went on to elaborate that he truly meant top 5 "players," not top five point guards. But what the hell does Brown know about winnin in the NBA, ya know?

Edit: Correction. I guess Brown didn't say "top 5," exactly. He basically said Deron was tied for first, the way I read it:

"I don't think there's a better player in the league than Deron Williams," Brown said. "You don't hear him talked about like the others, but the effect he has on games to me are every bit as dramatic as any of the great ones we talk about."

LINK
 
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Chad Feldheimer said:
"I would be OK with having DWill for 6-8 million, not for the max."

You mean Travis Outlaw type money? Get out of town.... you are too generous!
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That is the only conceivable way for the Jazz to win a championship, unfortunately. SLC is not LA or New York, so they cannot spend $80-100 million on salaries. And to win a ring they need an elite wing and an elite big. There is no way to get them trough the draft - any team with Deron will never get the top 3 pick.

So the Jazz will need to pay 2 max (or close to max) salaries to fill those two positions - and it is simply impossible with Deron having a max... Unless you are talking about gutting your team Miami-style, which I simply do not see happening in Utah for many reasons.

As I said, the Jazz team built around DWill would be a good, quality team, but it will never win it all. Of course, some of you may be OK with it...
 
Just curious, Lord, what team do you really root for? I see that your only previous thread was similar in tone. Ya know, the one where you said Dwayne Wade was a "tool" who "didn't know anything about basketball," because he said sumthin positive about Sloan, to wit:

"There are some great, great coaches around who can squeeze a lot of life out of their players, like Jerry Sloan. Every year he proves that." (Wade)

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php/80-Wade-apparently-knows-nothing-about-basketball

Mebbe ya wanna give us your basketball resume so that we can compare it to Wade's to decide for ourselves who might know more about basketball, you, or him, eh?
 
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The OP's post sounds like he stole some of my points from another previous thread where I had mentioned about having a lot of precedent for teams winning with a great wing/big man but not so much for teams with a great PG/PF. Jazz seem stuck to their 1-4 punch. However, I still feel that getting a legit MAX big guy alongside Deron would make us a contender. You put, say Duncan in his prime, next to Deron and you are telling me we are'nt contenders? I think the league rules just favor having a good wing now more than ever. No hand checks and all that . So you have a 6-6, or 6-7 guy who can do it all and it makes it much easier in the clutch. A PG is still 6-2 or 6-3 at the most(with rare exceptions like Tyreke Evans) and gets defended by a bigger guy in the playoffs making it difficult.
Isaiah Thomas seems to be the only exception in the last 25 yrs.

But still give Deron a Duncan or KG in their prime and we will be going to the Finals
 
I agree.

Lets move on.

Lets trade Deron to the Lakers for Sasha(replaces Korver) and Luke Walton (he's kinda like Harpring) and maybe a 2nd rounder or something.
 
Nothing is wrong with building around Deron. But there is a problem though. We need a second playmaker. We need to take the ball out of Deron's hands a little bit. Not because he isn't effective enough. But we need that second threat to take pressure off of him.
Sloan needs to take control and get better ball movement. Use AK more often. Put the ball in AK's hands when Deron is out. And Run some plays where Deron is off the ball for a little bit. It will make the team worry about more when we do that. Its not nearly as consistent enough as it could or should be.
 
I will say this though. We will never wing a ring if we don't get another playmaker here. Deron & CP3 will never win a ring on any team unless they get a second playmaker. It opens things up for everybody else when they have to worry about 2 players.
 
I think the Jazz have a lot of "playmakers," because that's the way the system is designed. The Jazz, as a team, led the league, by a wide margin,* in assists last year. Players other than Deron got about 60% of the team assists last year. For contrast, Nash and Paul each got almost 50% of their teams' total assists.

* There was a only a 3.1 assist spread between the 21st (Portland, 20.4 apg) and 2nd (Boston, 23.5 apg) ranked assist teams. The jazz (26.7 apg) had a 3.2 assist/game lead over 2nd place (Boston). I don't do stats, but I would guess that the Jazz are at least several standard deviations above the mean in the team assist category.

https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/miscellaneous-per-game
 
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Lord of Turnovers said:
Remind me again, how many rings do the last seven great PGs have? Stockton, Payton, Johnson, Kidd, Nash, DWill, CP3?
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81364548.jpg


Haha, bet you forgot about this.
 
You guys are completely missing the point. It isn't PG vs PF, it is about talent...and Utah has never had the depth of talent other teams have. And don't say Detriot either. They had SIX top ten picks on that team, including 3 in their starting lineup, and 2 more that were key contributors. Utah has never had that type of talent. Utah's has had Stockton, Malone, Hornacek, Deron, and maybe Boozer. The rest of the teams have been scrubs. It isn't Deron holding this team back, it is a lack of depth. A Deron and a team full of second rounders isn't going to cut it.
 
Lord of turnovers is more like the LORD OF IDIOTS!

Lose deron last year and the jazz would of been lucky to win 20 games. Every team in the NBA is jealous of the Jazz and Deron.
 
green said:
You guys are completely missing the point. It isn't PG vs PF, it is about talent...and Utah has never had the depth of talent other teams have. And don't say Detriot either. They had SIX top ten picks on that team, including 3 in their starting lineup, and 2 more that were key contributors. Utah has never had that type of talent. Utah's has had Stockton, Malone, Hornacek, Deron, and maybe Boozer. The rest of the teams have been scrubs. It isn't Deron holding this team back, it is a lack of depth. A Deron and a team full of second rounders isn't going to cut it.
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Not to worry, eh? Stockton was a 13th pick, Malone a 16th pick, and Horny was only a 46th pick. Now, with Honzward on board, we have a 3rd and a 9th pick, both picked higher than any of them. Not to even mention AK, a 24th pick. Piece of cake from here on out, I figure.
 
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