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BYU - it's time come out of the dark ages.

fishonjazz said:
I agree with you. It seems like you and i both kind of think that when a woman is raped at byu and she was breaking the honor code it would be pretty dumb to punish her for her honor code violation. Thats like kicking someone when they are down. And we both agree that drinking or doing drugs or whatever is not a big deal when compared with rape. I could see someone making an argument that if the honor code decided to treat rape cases like we think they should (basically leave the poor girl alone as it pertains to drinking some alcohol or whatever) that it could lead to false rape accusations in order to get out of trouble with the honor code. I dont think that would happen btw but im sure there are some who might think that could happen. someone could argue that looking the other way for honor code violations for any reason, including rape, could lead to a slippery slope with the honor code and the consistency at which they inforce the honor code and when they dont.
Having said that, im pretty certain that there is already inconsistency in how the honor code is inforced. Im sure that athletes probably dont have to obey the rules as much as someone else does and things like that so imo its perfectly reasonable, understandable, and preferable to be honest, that the honor code look the other way for rape victims.
In your post you talked about maybe delaying the honor code investigation but i actually disagree with that. Delaying it isn't even good enough. I mean if someone was raped and wait a year later and then kick them out of school for breaking the honor code while they were raped (drinking as an example), I still think that is messed up. Just cause they waited a year doesn't make it ok to make them go through more pain from that night all over again a year later by being kicked out of school. Does what posted make sense?
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I agree with you, but I just don't feel like it's really for me to say how BYU handles the honor code, other than to make sure it doesn't discourage rape victims to come forward, because those rapists might wander farther than the BYU campus and I would hate to think they could have been stopped sooner if the woman wasn't afraid of being blamed for being raped because they broke the honor code.
 
Glad to see BYU woke up and has made some changes. It's a good start, but we are a long ways away from this being righted.

It's too bad it had to come to all this before the GA's that run BYU did anything about it.
 
green said:
Glad to see BYU woke up and has made some changes. It's a good start, but we are a long ways away from this being righted.

It's too bad it had to come to all this before the GA's that run BYU did anything about it.
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Typically the way anything gets done in most organization. It has to get so bad there isn't a choice but to fix it.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
 
What a terrible thread, started by a terrible poster. Shocking stuff, really...

This situation sucks(ed), but let's be honest here; the honor code has probably saved scores of women (and men) from being victims of these types of crimes -- far more than those who are negatively affected by it. No system is perfect, and there will always be bumps in the road like this one, but once it happens, you learn from it, correct it, and move on.

I'd rather have my daughters at BYU over any school in the country, and if they wanted to go to the U, I'd do everything in my power to talk them out of it.

BYU > Science
 
[MENTION=228]green[/MENTION]

I could slice and dice the Honor Code on specific items based on moral reasoning. True it substitutes a formulaic ritual law for higher conscience. True it falls into the hands of moronic legalists who literally ruin people in distress/turmoil.

But what would a church school look like without a defined behavior standard? If you can't deal with the rules, just go, or send your kids, somewhere else. I am personally glad there is place on earth like BYU. The Chinese elites send all their kids to BYU, where the next generation of leaders is learning to appreciate some good Christian values.
 
babe said:
[MENTION=228]green[/MENTION]

I could slice and dice the Honor Code on specific items based on moral reasoning. True it substitutes a formulaic ritual law for higher conscience. True it falls into the hands of moronic legalists who literally ruin people in distress/turmoil.

But what would a church school look like without a defined behavior standard? If you can't deal with the rules, just go, or send your kids, somewhere else. I am personally glad there is place on earth like BYU. The Chinese elites send all their kids to BYU, where the next generation of leaders is learning to appreciate some good Christian values.
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https://www.sltrib.com/home/4159470-155/university-of-utah-under-federal-investigation

Keep in mind this is the liberal voice in Utah
 
TroutBum said:
What a terrible thread, started by a terrible poster. Shocking stuff, really...

This situation sucks(ed), but let's be honest here; the honor code has probably saved scores of women (and men) from being victims of these types of crimes -- far more than those who are negatively affected by it. No system is perfect, and there will always be bumps in the road like this one, but once it happens, you learn from it, correct it, and move on.

I'd rather have my daughters at BYU over any school in the country, and if they wanted to go to the U, I'd do everything in my power to talk them out of it.

BYU > Science
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LOL. This is the kind of close minded, fall in line thinking, that has ruined a lot of women's and men's lives and allowed rapists to prey on BYU students.

Be better.

I don't recall saying the entirety of the honor code was dumb. But, no intelligent person would argue that the honor code is 100% correct, or inspired from on high. It is a list of rules, and some of those rules are ridiculous.

I HATE this "all or none" attitude in my church, and especially among those who have strong ties to BYU. Not once does our doctrine say that it is all or none. Not once does it say the leaders of the Church are infallible.

Since Joseph Smith, members of the Church have questioned the prophet and some of the institutions' "policies". And with that questioning, the church has improved.

Hell, since this has happened and the heathens/gentiles have questioned BYU, changes have happened. Thank god for those those people, because the fall in line-BYU-is-correct people were wrong and had we listened to them, BYU would be worse off for it.
 
babe said:
[MENTION=228]green[/MENTION]

I could slice and dice the Honor Code on specific items based on moral reasoning. True it substitutes a formulaic ritual law for higher conscience. True it falls into the hands of moronic legalists who literally ruin people in distress/turmoil.

But what would a church school look like without a defined behavior standard? If you can't deal with the rules, just go, or send your kids, somewhere else. I am personally glad there is place on earth like BYU. The Chinese elites send all their kids to BYU, where the next generation of leaders is learning to appreciate some good Christian values.
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You are better than this. So, if something could be better, we should just go away, or send our kids somewhere else?

Why not fight to change the obviously incorrect things and make BYU better? What is wrong with improvement? What is wrong with a little self awareness and change? What is wrong with eternal progression?

The problem with my church is that too many believe the prophet sits with Christ every Thursday and holds the answers to all the questions. If that is the case, then change is bad.

The reality is, none of the above paragraph is true. The prophet doesn't hold all the answers. He doesn't meet with Christ to go over church issues every Thursday. He is a man, trying to do his best to help us do our best. Change shows that.
 
Haha, look at Green go completely off the deep end... Nothing that he complained about in his last few posts was actually said by any of us.

Grind that axe though, green, I'm sure your petty justifications for not being a good Mo-Mo will go over just peachily some Thursday night down the road, when you and Christ are having your weekly sup.

#pray4green
 
TroutBum said:
Haha, look at Green go completely off the deep end... Nothing that he complained about in his last few posts was actually said by any of us.

Grind that axe though, green, I'm sure your petty justifications for not being a good Mo-Mo will go over just peachily some Thursday night down the road, when you and Christ are having your weekly sup.

#pray4green
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Hi trout!
 
TroutBum said:
I'd rather have my daughters at BYU over any school in the country, and if they wanted to go to the U, I'd do everything in my power to talk them out of it.
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Don't blame you a bit. Only school in the country where they might have a chance to make the football team.
 
TroutBum said:
Haha, look at Green go completely off the deep end... Nothing that he complained about in his last few posts was actually said by any of us.

Grind that axe though, green, I'm sure your petty justifications for not being a good Mo-Mo will go over just peachily some Thursday night down the road, when you and Christ are having your weekly sup.

#pray4green
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Once again, a post of mindless ********. Good to see you haven't ever changed.
 
I think the amnesty awarded to victims is good. I also think the police and HC office should stop being cozy with one another. Honestly, no matter what Byu does there never seems to be a shortage of critics.
 
Any religion dominated university is kind of oxymoron unless it is strictly for non scientific studies like theology, art, business or literature studies. Science and religion is incompatible IMHO. I concur with all the posters who would never let their kids go to BYU. And honor code? Seriously? In 21 century?
 
Gameface said:
And there are several people commenting on that article that are saying that "just because a girl is sexually assaulted doesn't mean she's not responsible for her honor code violations."

The biggest problem is that the title IX personnel who investigate the sexual assault are alerting those who enforce the honor code so that they can investigate the victim. It would be simple enough for BYU to put a wall between those two groups. Sexual assault is handled confidentially and independently. Sexual assault is a very serious crime and honor code violations are not.
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Herein is one of my primary issues with the LDS Church; it has little to no respect for the privacy of the confessional. Odds are that, if you confess a serious sin, or even a non-serious one, to an Ecclesiastical Authority, others will out, whether because the authority reports it to another authority, it comes up in PEC meeting, the authority blabs to his wife,etc. Hell, the BYU admission/retention process is based explicitly on the violation of privacy, as information divulged during a Bishop's interview is, as a matter of normal procedure, shared with relevant BYU authorities (if not always in specific detail then in general).

Frankly, I find the LDS Church's lack of respect for the sanctity/privacy of the confessional to be appalling, and how it is handled in this case--sexually abused women being disciplined because of lack of respect for privacy--to be an even more appalling example of this practice. It's non-defensible in my opinion.
 
TroutBum said:
What a terrible thread, started by a terrible poster. Shocking stuff, really...

This situation sucks(ed), but let's be honest here; the honor code has probably saved scores of women (and men) from being victims of these types of crimes -- far more than those who are negatively affected by it. No system is perfect, and there will always be bumps in the road like this one, but once it happens, you learn from it, correct it, and move on.

I'd rather have my daughters at BYU over any school in the country, and if they wanted to go to the U, I'd do everything in my power to talk them out of it.

BYU > Science
Click to expand...

The issue here, as I see it, is not whether the honor code is good per se (I believe BYU, as a private religious organization has every right to set up and enforce such a code that enforces adherence to religious doctrines, though I'd prefer to see a more charitable application of it at times)but whether it is appropriate to discipline a woman for breaking that code if she reports a case of sexual abuse. That is, instead of providing her succor in her anguish (which seems the Christian thing to do), it piles on anguish on anguish. Somebody who cannot see the uncharitable nature of this practice is, I believe, someone who truly lacks empathy for what these woman are going through.

From a practical perspective, (1) it discourages women from report cases of sexual abuse, which in turn (2) lets sexual abusers (a far more serious 'sin' than fornication or heavy petting one would think)get away with it.

Thus it is both an uncharitable and ineffectual practice that does far more harm than good.
 
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