Calderon vs Mo Williams
- Thread starter Twin Towers
- Start date
The most important thing a PG can do is distribute. The second most important thing they can do, almost as important as passing, is having the ability to shoot from the outside. Every decent PG we've ever had fit these two criteria (Stockton, Williams, Crotty, Eisley to a much lesser extent [not as much passing]). We've picked up a number of guys that are proficient passers but not shooters and it hasn't been all that great (Mark Jackson, Brevin Knight, Earl Watson, Jacque Vaughn), then we pick up a few guys that few guys that do neither (Price, Hart), then there are a couple that are more difficult to evaluate due to limited time (Arroyo, Lopez, Mo Williams to an extent).
I think Calderon is a no brainer. Maybe he can't play defense, but if he can distribute and then just stand there and simply be a threat to hit from the outside.
I think Calderon is a no brainer. Maybe he can't play defense, but if he can distribute and then just stand there and simply be a threat to hit from the outside.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
the questions are these:
1. what would the jazz give up this year to acquire him?
2. what would it take to get him to SLC as a free agent?
As per 1: IMO, the realistic list is limited to our own expiring contracts. Essentially, the teams agree to swap dudes that probably won't be on their teams next year. Millsap is more valuable and productive than Calderon, so that deal is off the table; TOR isn't giving more than Calderon to acquire Millsap because they most likely won't be able to retain him. As I've already said, I'd swap him and Al immediately; but the only way that goes down is if TOR moves Bargs or another big man, because they aren't in need at the moment.
As per 2: Do the jazz have to give an extra year? Do we have to pay too much? I'd absolutely hate a 4-year deal. I'd hate a 3-year deal for the wrong price. Maybe he comes here for the right price at two years since he sees an opportunity to start for a competitive team, but that is a hard bargain.
My only interest is an Al swap. That'll at least give him an audition before we were to negotiate our own contract.
Don't really know or care. I'd just like to move Al to begin moving forward as it would free us up this year and force us not to resign.
fishonjazz
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Great post.
I would add that there is already a need for toronto at the 4/5 position even if they keep bargnani.... Jonas is injured and not playing much anyways and jefferson is an upgrade (debateable) for toronto over davis, johnson, jonas, or gray and possibly even bargnani.
However if that trade happened then the raptors would be starting john lucas III. (since lowry is hurt) Not sure they would want to do that.
Maybe we have to throw in watson or tinsley too.
Haha, enjoyed it!
You're assuming a lot. The Raptors have been trying to find a player to replace him for years (probably as step one in exploring an actual trade attempt) and regardless of who they try to bring in, Calderon always rises to the top. You can call it a coincidence that the Raptors suddenly look competent with Lowry out and Calderon having a sort of explosion, but I wouldn't.
The guy is a good player. Offensively, the closest thing to prototypical PG in the league despite his poor D.
Tinsley can't shoot and is one of the worst defensive players in the league (way worse than Calderon). And quite a bit older. And can't impact the game with any kind of consistency (he'll look great [as great as he can, anyway] one night, then be invisible the next. This might have to do with his age and that his battery is poor).
I think you're pretty much spot on here. I would say in regards to Millsap that the same issue with trading Al there is the same as Millsap: they have ENOUGH bigs. However, couldn't Al flesh out one of the bigs in a 3-big rotation? Besides Bargnani and Val Venus, who are they really committed to? More importantly, who SHOULD they be committed to in the guys that they have? I ask partially out of naivete.
If they're intent on clearing timber in their big rotation to make room for the idea of Al, you could conceivably include a third team where Bargnani goes somewhere else.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
It's a perfect comparison. How do you think Tinsley is able to keep getting minutes? He can't do anything but make the offense run right. Which is exactly why there is this thread discussing JC.
I'm starting to doubt my non-low opinion of you.
fishonjazz
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What makes it a bad comparison (IMO) is shooting ability.... calderon great shooter, tinsley not so much.
NAOS
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Brown Notes
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I'll try to assume you two aren't just being contrary for it's own sake.
The reason there is a thread about Calderon is that he has a rather rare NBA skill, which is the ability to see/anticipate every other player on the floor, and make good decisions. Since the discussion is basically about speculating what impact he'd have on our team, it helps to compare him to somebody that already plays here with that skill.
That guy is Tinsley. If you like to gather statistics (I'm too lazy) you could look at games he played when his shot is falling (in which case he forces the other team to guard him), I'm guessing that you'd find he has a ridiculous +/- in those games considering he was out of basketball for a bit and can barely move. JT is very good at getting the offense to run properly.
My theory is that we would see a similar effect with Calderon. The fact that he can shoot is gravy. Is that more clear for you guys?
GVC
Well-Known Member
I haven't watched nearly enough of Calderon in the last few years to have a strong opinion either way. I have spent some time on Raps/Jays forums, and have a pretty good grasp on what Raps' fans think of Calderon. They generally think he's a defensive sieve, who couldn't run a fastbreak to save his life and pounds the ball until there's no time left on the shot clock, giving his teammates little to do but shoot when he passes them the ball. Brown, take a look at his adjusted +/- numbers over the last 5 years; he's been among the worst few players on bad Raps teams in 4 of those years (in only one of those 5 years was he a +).
Is he better than Mo? Maybe. If Ed Davis can be had, I'd give up any combination of Foye, Al and Mo for Jose.
Is he better than Mo? Maybe. If Ed Davis can be had, I'd give up any combination of Foye, Al and Mo for Jose.
bjunior
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after you watch this video and if you are not familiar with NBA you may think that Toronto is the best team in the world and Calderon is basketball God
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
To me it isn't a question of being better than Mo necessarily but rather how much better he is than our backups and how that would help the team rather than having too many bigs.
I'm not a stat guru but the one I always liked for PGs was Assists/TOs. +/- is probably a better stat for PGs than other positions. Anyways over the summer looking for somebody that was an assist machine JC's name seemed to come up all the time. I don't know that dominating the ball is a terrible quality for a PG, lots and lots of them dribble around possessing it for a good portion of the clock.
The other side of the Rap's recent surge would be the possible availability of Lowry instead. What if Toronto flips again back in love with JC?
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
No team in the league really wants Calderon and yet Jazz fans clamor for him. Holy Christ this board is ****ing retarded.