call it now: who will start at SF?

[theNBAnerd]

mo, you're solution to the big man rotation is to slide everybody down a spot until we have non-point guards playing point guards. not sure how that makes us better when:
a) paul played so few minutes at the 3 last season that it's impossible to know if it is going to work long term.
b) foye has failed every time his team has tried to run him at point.

i've said it all summer and i'll say it again: most teams -- certainly the jazz -- have always gone with a 4-man rotation on the wings, a 4-man rotation up front, and 2 point guards. trying to keep track of which 3 guys are getting minutes at each position is a nightmare. 4-4-2. that's your rotation, and i think it's pretty obvious who makes that cut for the jazz.

 

[Stifle Tower]

nerd, I'm not saying this is a long-term solution, Someone will get traded or the Jazz will make their big man decision next summer when either Al or Paul accept an offer.

But how is this not a doable PG solution? Mo plays 28. Do you think at his age he's going to play 35 mins/per? Watson/Tinsley are our backup PG's. So the only "non-point" that I have playing at the 1 is Foye. He said in his interview he expects he'll be playing some point. To me, that means KOC or Ty has already talked to him. If you remember, Burks essentially played PG in the summer league. Ahearn/Stockton brought the ball up and then passed off to Burks who ran the offense. And then our "PG" just stood over on one side of the arc. I see Foye/Burks doing the same thing. No, they can't be starting PG's. But Randy can certainly bring the ball up against backups, then pass it off to Alec for a drive and dish, or a kickout back to Foye for a spot up jumper.

 

[Deleted member 848]

nerd, I'm not saying this is a long-term solution, Someone will get traded or the Jazz will make their big man decision next summer when either Al or Paul accept an offer.

But how is this not a doable PG solution? Mo plays 28. Do you think at his age he's going to play 35 mins/per? Watson/Tinsley are our backup PG's. So the only "non-point" that I have playing at the 1 is Foye. He said in his interview he expects he'll be playing some point. To me, that means KOC or Ty has already talked to him. If you remember, Burks essentially played PG in the summer league. Ahearn/Stockton brought the ball up and then passed off to Burks who ran the offense. And then our "PG" just stood over on one side of the arc. I see Foye/Burks doing the same thing. No, they can't be starting PG's. But Randy can certainly bring the ball up against backups, then pass it off to Alec for a drive and dish, or a kickout back to Foye for a spot up jumper.

I've told nerd this like 100 times, he refuses to believe that Foye can play backup PG

 

[Deleted member 848]

"Randy Foye's HS coach says new Jazz guard is "a great point guard and people don’t even realize it."

Bill Oram @tribjazz

Also talks about how Randy Foye almost signed with the Jazz, but we were stuck with Braille instead

 

[theNBAnerd]

I've told nerd this like 100 times, he refuses to believe that Foye can play backup PG

so does every NBA coach who has ever tried to have foye run the offense.

 

[billyshelby]

I would not start Marvin, but only because I wouldn't want Burks/Foye playing together. Maybe we'll find that tandem can work, but I think it can be badly exploited. I fully expect Ty to start Hayward/Marvin regardless.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

"Randy Foye's HS coach says new Jazz guard is "a great point guard and people don’t even realize it."

Bill Oram @tribjazz

Also talks about how Randy Foye almost signed with the Jazz, but we were stuck with Braille instead

In other news Randy Foye's mom said he was better than Michael Jordan, but people just don't realize it.

 

[Deleted member 848]

In other news Randy Foye's mom said he was better than Michael Jordan, but people just don't realize it.

Foye's HS coach has sent 33 players to the NBA, including Kyrie Irving.

Side Note: Foye's mom was killed when he was just a spud. Both of his parents died while he was still fairly young.

 

[bjacksonjazzfan]

It will be Marvin.

 

[theNBAnerd]

I would not start Marvin, but only because I wouldn't want Burks/Foye playing together. Maybe we'll find that tandem can work, but I think it can be badly exploited. I fully expect Ty to start Hayward/Marvin regardless.

staggered rotations. you can start marvin/gtime and still only have burks and foye on the floor together for a few minutes at a time.

 

[Stifle Tower]

staggered rotations. you can start marvin/gtime and still only have burks and foye on the floor together for a few minutes at a time.

Maybe we were getting at this from different angles, but I agree. I think the Foye/Burks tandem could work...in limited mins...and ONLY against fellow subs. And in this pairing, Burks is essentially the PG once the Jazz cross midcourt, with Foye being the off-guard. I have it at 10 mins, only because I was trying to find a solution to keep almost everyone happy (well, perhaps the "least pissed off") until the trade deadline. Obviously, if you eliminate Millsap getting time at SF, then more time is freed up at the wings. Burks/Foye can get their PT without either playing "PG" minutes.

I think summer league tipped Corbin's hand, though; the Jazz are going to have Burks run the offense at times. Can he ever be a backup PG? Maybe not. But if he's paired with another ballhandler, that could work.

 

[billyshelby]

staggered rotations. you can start marvin/gtime and still only have burks and foye on the floor together for a few minutes at a time.

That would certainly be a solution. But Ty pretty much followed the Sloan wing paradigm all year of starters coming out at the 8-10 and back in for the last 4 - 5. Obviously foul situations and/or matchups mixed things up a little, but not that often.

I want Ty to show me he can be a little creative or experimental, but my guess is he'll just insert Burks or Foye into the starting lineup if there's a problem on the backup unit and keep the minutes model.

The only real change I actually expect to see is that Ty will close halves with different players. He'll almost always use Gordon, but he'll probably mix up Marvin/Foye/Burks a lot. We won't see his dedication to shooting himself in the foot by closing halves and games with Bell, or any one player. Even Gordon will sit out a few.

 

[theNBAnerd]

That would certainly be a solution. But Ty pretty much followed the Sloan wing paradigm all year of starters coming out at the 8-10 and back in for the last 4 - 5. Obviously foul situations and/or matchups mixed things up a little, but not that often.

I want Ty to show me he can be a little creative or experimental, but my guess is he'll just insert Burks or Foye into the starting lineup if there's a problem on the backup unit and keep the minutes model.

The only real change I actually expect to see is that Ty will close halves with different players. He'll almost always use Gordon, but he'll probably mix up Marvin/Foye/Burks a lot. We won't see his dedication to shooting himself in the foot by closing halves and games with Bell, or any one player. Even Gordon will sit out a few.

yeah, there's a chance everything you said here is right - but i hope ty tries something different.

one thing even sloan used to do with his backcourt was basically have a 4-man rotation (remember, this was during the days of the 2-guard front, so "guards" were grouped together and not "wings" like in today's offense) but staggered so that one guy played the entire 1st and 3rd, the other 2nd and 4th.

ty could do something similar on the wings --> start hayward and burks... sub hayward out for foye at the 8 minute mark and slide burks to the 3 for just the final 4 minutes of the quarter... at the quarter break, burks sits down for marvin... at the 7 minute mark, bring hayward back in for foye.

hayward gets 15 minutes per half (30 mpg)
marvin and burks get 12 each (24 mpg)
foye gets 9 (18 mpg)

something like that to capitalize on the synergies that different combinations give you. and, in ty's defense, he did realize after the AS break last season that he could get something similar with the bigs. remember, it used to always be al/sap or fav/ek, and then finally in the back half of the year, corbin realized he could stagger subs and that way he has different tandems that each bring something a little different.

same is true of the 4 main wings this year. each of the combinations has a different set of strengths that you could unleash for a few minutes and then go onto something else to show our versatility and get different angles.

 

[billyshelby]

yeah, there's a chance everything you said here is right - but i hope ty tries something different.

one thing even sloan used to do with his backcourt was basically have a 4-man rotation (remember, this was during the days of the 2-guard front, so "guards" were grouped together and not "wings" like in today's offense) but staggered so that one guy played the entire 1st and 3rd, the other 2nd and 4th.

ty could do something similar on the wings --> start hayward and burks... sub hayward out for foye at the 8 minute mark and slide burks to the 3 for just the final 4 minutes of the quarter... at the quarter break, burks sits down for marvin... at the 7 minute mark, bring hayward back in for foye.

hayward gets 15 minutes per half (30 mpg)
marvin and burks get 12 each (24 mpg)
foye gets 9 (18 mpg)

something like that to capitalize on the synergies that different combinations give you. and, in ty's defense, he did realize after the AS break last season that he could get something similar with the bigs. remember, it used to always be al/sap or fav/ek, and then finally in the back half of the year, corbin realized he could stagger subs and that way he has different tandems that each bring something a little different.

same is true of the 4 main wings this year. each of the combinations has a different set of strengths that you could unleash for a few minutes and then go onto something else to show our versatility and get different angles.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the staggered subs concept usually works best when a team has a weak link they're trying to maximize. Like, the Bulls started the pathetic Keith Bogans 2 years ago and yanked him quick every 1st and 3rd. That was rigid. Alternatively, OKC starts Thabo because he makes more sense defensively with the 1st unit while Harden makes more sense on the 2nd (but of course Thabo doesn't close when things go to plan.)

But I don't think a nightly plan to rigidly take this guy out after 7 and put that guy in at 3 minutes of the 2nd will work. Matchups/hot hands change every night. A fixed system is not the solution, adaptation is.

The minutes model we employ is basically fine and most coaches use it. Ty just needs to be more assertive in substitutions. God knows we saw countless games were Hayward was invisible for the first 10 minutes. He can still get his 30 on those nights, but yank him after 7, bring him back earlier, and adjust minutes on the fly. This could be said for most players we have, but different guys get different lengths of rope.