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Can the Trumpster fire come back from this?

The supreme court has already ruled that the 2nd amendment is an individual right and that it applies to personal defense. They aren't going to reverse themselves on that decision, in fact they won't even hear that case again. Opposing Hillary on gun rights grounds has nothing to do with reality. The things she cold do, if she can manage to do them at all, will be mostly inconsequential, imo.

It is true that the Court does not like to overturn past decisions. But with a changed court, the Heller decision wouldn't need to be flat out overturned. Future cases could just make modifications/clarifications so while you have a personal right to a gun, those rights would be so limited it wouldn't mean much of anything which would effectively make the Heller decision moot.

It is unfortunate that our court is so politically polarized. It shouldn't be that way.
 
In regards to you two, I have to say that the majority of Evangelicals do not support Trump. There's a few here and there, including some that I know, but the vast majority does not approve of Trump. I think there's a bit of hyperbole with that take.

As far as we can tell from polls etc., white evangelicals by far and away approve of and are voting for Trump. This isn't really in question.
https://religionnews.com/2016/10/11/poll-trump-support-remains-steady-among-evangelicals/
(this is just one of many articles/polls)

The article laid out how both Reagan and Trump courted evangelicals through strategic language. The author points out how both of these candidates had similar backgrounds as actors living in Liberal hotbeds. White evangelicals are just one of the major groups Trump has courted with his language. There are plenty of great people who are evangelicals, but the author's take on this is cogent and persuasive.
 
As far as we can tell from polls etc., white evangelicals by far and away approve of and are voting for Trump. This isn't really in question.
https://religionnews.com/2016/10/11/poll-trump-support-remains-steady-among-evangelicals/
(this is just one of many articles/polls)

The article laid out how both Reagan and Trump courted evangelicals through strategic language. The author points out how both of these candidates had similar backgrounds as actors living in Liberal hotbeds. White evangelicals are just one of the major groups Trump has courted with his language. There are plenty of great people who are evangelicals, but the author's take on this is cogent and persuasive.

I would argue that the majority of those who consider themselves Evangelicals are just people who say they believe in God and go to church sometimes, but that's just me. Difference between them and what I'm talking about, imo.
 
I think Trump forgets that it is Congress who has to pass laws like term limits, and they are not likely to vote against their own interests (even when a majority of their constituents are in favor). He believes that he can bend them to do his will, but I suspect it will be an eye-opening experience for him, if he gets the chance anyway.
 
Did you know that the Supreme Court doesn't just revisit it's previous rulings?

well, not without good reason, let's say. Hopefully. But for folks today who call our law, our Constitution, "living" standards, it is supposed to change when things change.
 
I would argue that the majority of those who consider themselves Evangelicals are just people who say they believe in God and go to church sometimes, but that's just me. Difference between them and what I'm talking about, imo.

I pretty sure there are some sharp differences among specific local churches on this issue. What you need to do is float around a little and see what's being said outside your little niche.
 
I've often referred to the age we live in as the Age of Conspiracy Theories. At the level of popular culture, conspiracy thought is endemic. What Donald Trump is doing is maximizing this trend to create an alternative political reality with it's foundation in the Rigged Election Conspiracy Theory. Millions of Americans do and will continue to live in this alternate reality. A political movement rooted in, and launched from, conspiracy thought. An alternate interpretation of current events rooted in conspiracy thought. An irrational political movement. Perhaps a new media empire where Alex Jones, Brietbart News, and the Drudge Report can contribute to establishing a fantasy reality, home of the uneducated.

Donald Trump isn't going anywhere. There has always been a plan B. A far right media empire that will make Fox News look liberal:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/17/13304110/trump-tv-jared-kushner

https://www.commondreams.org/views/...oger-ailes-cooking-post-election-media-empire

This may be the best summary I have come across yet describing the various elements of the Trump coalition:

Trump the Arsonist.
Evangelicals, Survivalists, the Alt-Right, and Hurricane Donald:

https://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176197/tomgram:_john_feffer,_slouching_toward_the_apocalypse/

"Next month's election is important. But the core supporters of Donald Trump are not going to move to Canada -- or Russia -- if their candidate loses. Those who crave the simplistic, authoritarian solutions offered by dangerous populists around the world are not going to retreat into political apathy simply because of the scorn heaped upon them by the mainstream. The apocalyptic rhetoric of Trump and his followers is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The gale-force winds of this populist hurricane have been intensified by decades of polarizing economic and social policies. Whatever happens in November, the forecast is for more stormy weather ahead."

Nope, he isn't going anywhere. He has only just begun to damage American democracy....

I'm pretty sure your reading list is pretty narrow, mostly heavily vested ideologues from the progressive left.

It's a pretty silly way to classify people that attempts to discredit opinions out of hand.

Few people with much to do with the "real world" outside of the ivory towers you frequent, would dispute the realities of interest groupings working together at times for common benefits.
 
I'm pretty sure your reading list is pretty narrow, mostly heavily vested ideologues from the progressive left.

It's a pretty silly way to classify people that attempts to discredit opinions out of hand.

Few people with much to do with the "real world" outside of the ivory towers you frequent, would dispute the realities of interest groupings working together at times for common benefits.

Been ages since I frequented any ivory towers at all. Basically, I understood what Trump represented the day he descended the escalator in his own NYC Tower. And I've just gone from there. I saw through him on day one, in other words. Didn't require reading anything at the time. "Here comes a demagogue, and this cannot be a good development". I trust my instincts at times. He's done nothing to prove my instincts about him wrong. I have the benefit of being retired, and understanding that I was witnessing history, I have spent hours every day studying the man and his followers. And I was not at all surprised that he declined to say he would accept the results of November 8th. In fact, I knew he would not. I do trust my instincts on the man. I can find many pundants who obviously agree with me, but I stand on my own most of the time, and just trust what I see....
 
Been ages since I frequented any ivory towers at all. Basically, I understood what Trump represented the day he descended the escalator in his own NYC Tower. And I've just gone from there. I saw through him on day one, in other words. Didn't require reading anything at the time. "Here comes a demagogue, and this cannot be a good development". I trust my instincts at times. He's done nothing to prove my instincts about him wrong. I have the benefit of being retired, and understanding that I was witnessing history, I have spent hours every day studying the man and his followers. And I was not at all surprised that he declined to say he would accept the results of November 8th. In fact, I knew he would not. I do trust my instincts on the man. I can find many pundants who obviously agree with me, but I stand on my own most of the time, and just trust what I see....

You're making incoherent statements here about how "it didn't require reading anything" and later "spending hours studying the man and his followers". I could claim to have just known everything outright and brag about immersing myself in material that just vindicates my initial prejudices, except that's not true of me or a lot of other people.

It would come off glib to observe that Trump's appeal to many people is precisely because there are so many people being just done with the ways you approve and your reasons for approving those ways. Of course you can dismiss them as deplorable ignoramuses and rest on your historical laurels, or run out any of a number of insults to Trumpsters and Trump himself. But I sorta think the real issue is all that Hillary represents.

Is Hillary the norm you want for the next 100 years? My guess is that your answer is "yes" to that. To me, that discredits your entire claim to education, to historical perspective, to valid instincts, and to the culture that you choose to associate with.

I don't think anyone knows Trump, as he is actually unpredictable on purpose. It's his mode of conduct. After so many years of politicians following the perfect standards for campaigning and public manipulations, a lot of people are just done with the usual political show.

I've seen you embrace without criticism a lot of media trash and pass it along as scholarly fact, so I'm doubting your insticts and your "history". I think you are a sad case of delusional fantasy....

yah, and I expect the JazzFanzers to be nitwits enough to say the same of me.

Actually, I've had to change my opinions of Trump about every other week, but more and more, he is making intelligent, informed statements about things a lot of politicians have not understood.

For example, if the Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade, without legislating something in its place, the issue would fall to the individual states, and people would just go where they needed to go to get the law, and the services, the way they want it. Tenth Amendment plus no national definition of the legalities of protecting either fetus or mother in the process. I'm not sure that's the best way, but I'm sure we will not ever have unanimity on the issue, and I'm tired of statists politicizing the issue. I think we have a human being from the instant of conception but who can place a value on that if the parents fail to. The full term abortion/merchandizing of parts is macabre. I know our medical technologies/services can save many babies from twenty weeks on, and a lot of people believe it's good to do that.

Trump is pretty smart to get the Federal government outta the business of legislating this. If you believe the world is overpopulated and you believe we must reduce population, you will arrive at a different conclusion. I just don't want our Federal government being empowered to impose those imperatives.

Trump's got JFK's economic plan in view, the same one Reagan did pretty well with, and I think we will prosper with it. If you believe America should be leveled with the rest of the world economically, as Obama and Clinton do, you will see that idea as practically evil. I might think it evil to deliberately impoverish Americans while professing to be their advocates, but that's because I know Hillary for the Demagogue she is, really.

We can trade insults forever, if you wish, but the words you wrap yourself with just don't look right to me, and your beliefs don't look right to me, and your education looks suspect for all your fond memories of your career and your study. You'd have to be willing to take a fresh look at everything you believe to look credible to me. Failing of that, I sorta sense I'm talking to an echo chamber from a failed past.

I think it was about 1973 when I first encountered the distinct recognition of a fully vested ideologue who howled at the idea that we have a production problem and asserted we have a population problem. The ideas were planted in Cbina around 1950 by the Ford Foundation, and population controls were instituted along with Mao's agrarian reforms that forced doctors to hoe weeds and everyone reduce their material living circumstances. I believed from about 1970 that the material welfare of the United States could not be sustained by raw materials and labor from the poor nations, that there needed to be more of a parity. My opinion has always been that the repressive governments around the world have hindered rather than helped the human race, and seeing Hillary bringing the same toolbag to manage America is just not, imo, going to do anybody any good.

I'd rather reform the UN to require members to implement constitutional limits on governance and send fairly elected representatives to the UN than go on with fascism. Hillary represents unbridled fascism, cronyism and corruption and massively abusive government power. She is the real "demagogue", and if you can't see that I can only conclude you won't see anything in whatever I could possibly try to say.

Is Trump different? Well, he talks different, and a of people hope he will turn out different.
 
[MENTION=3085]Red[/MENTION]

So I just came across the news of your heart attack..

Pretty sure you don't need to worry about my arguments for a while. Get yourself on a steady path and manage the stress. Listen to the docs and go easy on the beef. I do beef cattle but I swear every time I eat a steak I can feel the grease inside my arteries. . . .course some can handle it no doubt, but at least for me I should do sunflower seeds and fish. Not canned fished, good fish fresh caught.
 
You're making incoherent statements here about how "it didn't require reading anything" and later "spending hours studying the man and his followers". I could claim to have just known everything outright and brag about immersing myself in material that just vindicates my initial prejudices, except that's not true of me or a lot of other people.

The one(recognizing what he was the day he descended the escalator at Trump Tower), and studying the man up the yin yang are not mutually exclusive. FYI, this is history, and I have been completely engrossed in observing Trump and Trumpism. I meant every word of what I said. I would not have sat this out for anything. When I have found opinions and articles that help explain the man, or point out the things I know are true of the man, I have often posted those articles. And for the benefit of the choir, for those who think as I do regarding the man. The recognition on my part was there from the start. So what? Why is that a problem for you? The recognition you have of the man sounds like an alternate reality to me. That's your problem. I find your description of what he represents to be flat out delusional. And, that too I recognized from the start. I'm not claiming any special powers, just stating the truth as it applies to myself.
 
[MENTION=3085]Red[/MENTION]

So I just came across the news of your heart attack..

Pretty sure you don't need to worry about my arguments for a while. Get yourself on a steady path and manage the stress. Listen to the docs and go easy on the beef. I do beef cattle but I swear every time I eat a steak I can feel the grease inside my arteries. . . .course some can handle it no doubt, but at least for me I should do sunflower seeds and fish. Not canned fished, good fish fresh caught.

LOL. Don't worry about me. The only times this history I'm witnessing may have played a significant role in any health problems was far too many actually heated arguments that weren't necessary. And that doesn't happen here on Jazzfanz. Those were always live and in living color. Here, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. At any rate, thanks for your advise, I appreciate it. I feel fine. Thank you, babe.
 
[MENTION=970]babe[/MENTION],

If there is anything in my background, in terms of education, that helped me understand Trump in a clearer fashion, that is something I am grateful for. Not boasting of. Grateful for. I do not consider any education I have as somehow conveying superiority, in any way, shape, or form. I'm grateful if my education helps me understand something better then I would otherwise. But I don't rest on any laurels. The fact is I have as much background in working class livelihoods as any associated with so-called ivory towers. If I have ever come across as thinking myself superior in any sense, it was certainly not by design. My father taught me to always be humble. I am not perfect, who is, but any effort I have made to illuminate Trump, either in my own words, or by linking to the words of others, has been out of an effort to educate others. I don't think as highly of myself as you seem to think I do. I have no reason to feel that way.

Lots of people, untold numbers of people, recognized what Trump was very early on. I am hardly unique at all in that respect. Do I truly understand why, in my eyes, so many people seem clueless as to what Trump represents? No, it's difficult. I understand why so many are alienated from what they perceive America has become in their eyes. I have sympathy for those folks, even as I loath the far right extremists who see one of their own in Trump, and who see the opportunity to bring their hatred, intolerance, and bigotry into our political life. I do not perceive Hillary Clinton as a saint at all. But to keep a man of Trump's despicable character out of the Oval Office, I must hope she wins.
 
yah, pretty much some kind of internal set point whether you or I think someone who a lot of folks idolize is a demagogue. One person I know named a cute pup "Hillary" because it's so wonderful to have a Clinton and woman in the race.

I take most "liberals' with their strong opinions on all the right stuff everyone should think as products of Sesame Street and PBS, a lifetime of state-supported propaganda. I take "conservatives" as the lonely fools on the hill who see how stupid all that is.

Pretty much I've been around the world and have accepted the facts of different people having different views. Having some drunk attack on a dark street calling me an imperialist and learning to just keep walking, or a cowboy stuff a deer rifle up my nose to show how tuff he is has taught me to understand the difference between Trump and a bigot. Trump doesn't have any consistent opinion of others, he works the situation for what it's worth. He will have a party with Jesse Jackson just as same as with Hillary and Bill. It's all about the deal.

I think you live in a world of hobgoblins and ignorant hate for people you don't know, applying theoretical notions to anyone who is characterized by "liberal" media as "right-wing". Trump keeps score with deals that work, and calls those that don't work bad deals. He makes little effort to conform to political correctness in his private affairs, but he is not as skilled at keeping his private affairs off the radar as the Clintons have been. He does not rape women, or effectively destroy women who threaten his political interest. He is just not as complicated as Hillary, nor as cunning. Trump might pat a nice butt or leer at a particularly pretty woman, but he has no drive for non-consensual sex. Sure some women have rejected his advances, but the consistent fact is that if his wealth and personal appeal is rejected, he walks away.... unlike Bill Clinton or Hillary who use policemen and enablers to supply access to interesting sexual encounters, and use threats and force in the "play", and they use force to shut down the publicity somehow. This means, in my estimation, that Trump has been a sensual man with a swagger for the ladies, but not someone fixated on conquest. So even the sexual charges have, in my eyes, informed me of a difference in character.

Most people who seek political office have some sort of big ego, some might term it psychopathy or sociopathy. I consider Trump's case to be much less severe than Hillary's or Bill's. Bill and Hillary should be in prison serving time for sexual abuse of their victims if not for their criminal vilations of national security laws or conversions of public influence to personal assets. Trump needs to find Jesus and recognize his carnal sin.

People who support Hillary have a lot of facts to ignore, and the media moguls who've jumped in the sack with Hillary's Presidency are not going to enquire about facts. I think HIllary is the most dangerous politician America has ever had, and letting her get into that office is a threat against the character of America, national security, and human liberty. I think even Bill Clinton is afraid of her, and powerless to influence her. When he was President he was afraid of her. That's why the perv looks for little boys to rape, and women to rape.
 
Mr. Trump has the greatest pre voting number on record! I am tell you he has so so many supporters who do not dare to come out and say they are voting for him. Take Utah for example they said three way tie. He has already won Utah!
 
[MENTION=970]babe[/MENTION],

If there is anything in my background, in terms of education, that helped me understand Trump in a clearer fashion, that is something I am grateful for. Not boasting of. Grateful for. I do not consider any education I have as somehow conveying superiority, in any way, shape, or form. I'm grateful if my education helps me understand something better then I would otherwise. But I don't rest on any laurels. The fact is I have as much background in working class livelihoods as any associated with so-called ivory towers. If I have ever come across as thinking myself superior in any sense, it was certainly not by design. My father taught me to always be humble. I am not perfect, who is, but any effort I have made to illuminate Trump, either in my own words, or by linking to the words of others, has been out of an effort to educate others. I don't think as highly of myself as you seem to think I do. I have no reason to feel that way.

Lots of people, untold numbers of people, recognized what Trump was very early on. I am hardly unique at all in that respect. Do I truly understand why, in my eyes, so many people seem clueless as to what Trump represents? No, it's difficult. I understand why so many are alienated from what they perceive America has become in their eyes. I have sympathy for those folks, even as I loath the far right extremists who see one of their own in Trump, and who see the opportunity to bring their hatred, intolerance, and bigotry into our political life. I do not perceive Hillary Clinton as a saint at all. But to keep a man of Trump's despicable character out of the Oval Office, I must hope she wins.

I have virtually no facts about you, just interpretations based on a few comments. You seem to have a consistent interest in history, and I see you using a bad data base for orienting yourself politically. Other than that, and including the impression that you are among the lemmings marching off the cliff with Hillary, I have no reason to believe anything bad about you. yah I thought you might be involved in some internet effort to promote progressive issues, but that could be innocent credulity..... or maybe even informed serious education..... depending on my prejudices, I guess.
 
Mr. Trump has the greatest pre voting number on record! I am tell you he has so so many supporters who do not dare to come out and say they are voting for him. Take Utah for example they said three way tie. He has already won Utah!

Boris, you are in a little liberal hive. You need to least give off a friendly buzz.

I could see some folks hurrying to get their vote in because either Hillary or Trump has a huge negative cloud of slanderous bile hanging on them, but I don't think Utah Mormons are voting much for Trump. Mitt Romney has put a word on the street for McMullin, has induced some media to give McMullin a good press. Doug Wright and some other locals have given McMullin free time on air to show his colors as a moderate and decent fellow. My sense of Utah is Trump 38, Hillary 37, and McMullin 18 with three others getting the 7.
 
Arguing over Trump and Clinton is quickly getting past the point of electoral relevance. Poll aggregators now put Clinton at anywhere from a 85 to a 99 percent win probability. Princeton Election Consortium, the most accurate aggregator over the last two presidential elections, has had Clinton vacillating between a 98 and 99 percent win probability for the past week. They’ve essentially called the election and are now focusing on down ballot races.

Those grim numbers (for Trump supporters) don’t even take into account early voting. About ten percent of the electorate has already cast their ballots and about a million more early vote every day. Early voting in battleground states, with the possible exceptions of Iowa and Ohio, has been very favorable to Clinton. Normally Republicans are more likely to vote early. Not this year. The news is especially bad for Trump in Florida where Latino voting is way up. Without Florida Trump has virtually no path to the necessary 270 electoral votes.

The question of the thread is can Trump come back from this: "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the *****. You can do anything.” The answer is that he was losing before in what would likely have been a close election, but the audio of that quote was his death knell, and the question now is if he will be landslided and drag Republican control of the Senate down with him.
 
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