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cheating...

My only advice is forgiveness of things like this is really, really hard. It requires making a difficult decision to trust your significant other over and over again. Everytime one of the questionable circumstances that Hartsock pointed out, happens you have to decide to trust. In time it becomes easier, but don't expect it just happen on its own.

In your particular circumstances, I would be inclined to move on. However, it sucks to be alone. So as a bunch of others have said your might be right and you might be wrong. You need to have a clear communication on how your relationship is going to work and discussion needs to be ongoing.
 
Gameface said:
I've thought about this a lot, the idea that monogamy is not normal. I think it's where we're at because while an individual may never have purely monogamous desires we almost always have expectations that our partner be monogamous. And That I don't believe is self imposed. I think it has proven to be nearly inescapable by and large. So we're not monogamous because we want to be, but because we want our partner to be. It's a compromise we make. We're all willing to be monogamous in exchange for our partner being monogamous.
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Expectations do not arise from biology, they are based on experience and culture. There are other cultures with polygamy, polyandry, and even a couple with polyamory as their base expectation. Last I heard, about two-thirds of husbands and half of the wives has sex outside their marriage in the USA. There are perhaps a handful of truly monogamous vertebrates. I do not approve nor disapprove of any person choosing to adopt a cultural norm of monogamy, and I will not elevate the concept to some sort of ideal nor denigrate it. It's a choice; it needs to be thought out more carefully than your choice of breakfast cereal because the choice does have greater implications in relationships, but it has no more moral relevance than your choice of cereal.
 
I think sometime apart will allow you and her to evaluate the relationship... If after sometime she is still wanting to be with you that's a good indication that she has learned from her mistake from years ago and is committed to you.... Just my opinion!!
 
I agree with much of what One Brow has said.

A little addition:
A little psychic theatre of problems and norms is created every time monogamy is implicitly or explicitly accepted. There are powerful feelings that emerge from these problems and norms -- powerful enough to cover over other issues that come with being in a relationship. Personally, I'd rather make the relationship about other issues. The older I get, the more bored I become over monogamous strife.

To the OP:
The fact that she lied about the details could mean a couple of things. First, she probably didn't want to hurt you. Second, she was probably ashamed of herself. I'm a little troubled by the fact that you both have been living amongst this shame for so long... you might want to think about what that means for your relationship as you make your own decision. Best of luck.
 
One Brow said:
Expectations do not arise from biology, they are based on experience and culture. There are other cultures with polygamy, polyandry, and even a couple with polyamory as their base expectation. Last I heard, about two-thirds of husbands and half of the wives has sex outside their marriage in the USA. There are perhaps a handful of truly monogamous vertebrates. I do not approve nor disapprove of any person choosing to adopt a cultural norm of monogamy, and I will not elevate the concept to some sort of ideal nor denigrate it. It's a choice; it needs to be thought out more carefully than your choice of breakfast cereal because the choice does have greater implications in relationships, but it has no more moral relevance than your choice of cereal.
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Many of these non-monogamous customs are driven by male dominated societies where the woman's desires are hardly considered if at all, are they not?. I'm no expert so I'm completely open to being educated on the subject.

Regardless of whatever cultural norms exist I believe jealousy and security are biologically driven emotions. I think people can try to take a rational view and I think they are often sunk by deep-seated emotional reactions to someone we are in a relationship engaging in sexual activity with a rival.
 
Gameface said:
Many of these non-monogamous customs are driven by male dominated societies where the woman's desires are hardly considered if at all, are they not?. I'm no expert so I'm completely open to being educated on the subject.

Regardless of whatever cultural norms exist I believe jealousy and security are biologically driven emotions. I think people can try to take a rational view and I think they are often sunk by deep-seated emotional reactions to someone we are in a relationship engaging in sexual activity with a rival.
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the history of strict monogamy is largely a myth. The story goes like this: YOU, WOMAN, MUST NEVER LAY WITH ANOTHER. ME, WELL,......

monogamy is definitely not an institution borne of women's desires alone. it is, maybe, the male-dominated institution par excellence.

(Graeber's book on Debt would be very interesting for you on this and many other levels.)
 
NAOS said:
the history of strict monogamy is largely a myth. The story goes like this: YOU, WOMAN, MUST NEVER LAY WITH ANOTHER. ME, WELL,......

monogamy is definitely not an institution borne of women's desires alone. it is, maybe, the male-dominated institution par excellence.

(Graeber's book on Debt would be very interesting for you on this and many other levels.)
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And the thing about the history of relationship's is that until very recently they were mostly matter of utility, necessity and duty. I don't think we gain any great insight into what makes for a good standard of relationships and marriage by looking backwards. Only now that most people have enough food to eat and shelter and the social liberation to pursue relationships that satisfy their romantic desires are we learning about what works and what people really want and are really capable of dealing with.
 
There's no excuse for cheating. If I was ever cheated on, it would be a no brainer to me what to do. I believe too much in a thing calledy loyalty. Cheaters believe in a thing called, "I don't care if I **** up my reputation of a human being and my partner's life."
 
Gameface said:
Many of these non-monogamous customs are driven by male dominated societies where the woman's desires are hardly considered if at all, are they not?. I'm no expert so I'm completely open to being educated on the subject.

Regardless of whatever cultural norms exist I believe jealousy and security are biologically driven emotions. I think people can try to take a rational view and I think they are often sunk by deep-seated emotional reactions to someone we are in a relationship engaging in sexual activity with a rival.
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I don't think there is a male-dominated culture that allows polyandry/polyamory/group marriage. So, while I would agree the allowing polygyny as the only form of multiple marriage is an excellent indicator of a male-dominated society, it is disingenuous to describe that more generally as "non-monogamous cultures", since only one particular type of non-monogamy is allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_marriage

I agree that cultural values can be so ingrained that we feel jealousy/insecurity even when we know there is no rational basis for it. I also agree that jealousy and insecurity are biologically driven. However, they are also affected by those ingrained culture values. You can only be jealous of something you think can be possessed or owned (when was the last time you were jealous of air?); you can only be insecure about something you think you will lose (when was the last time the setting moon made you insecure?). If you regard a mate as something that can not be possessed or owned, if you regard their commitment as based on something other than monogamy, then the prerequisites for feeling jealousy/insecurity do not form.
 
I'm impressed by how reasoned and measured the responses have been to this thread. Here's my take, for what it's worth.

If it happened 4 years ago, and she's been faithful since, and you love her, and she loves you, I would advise you to forgive her and move on.

I think you're probably assuming that you would never, ever consider cheating on her. But I think one day you might very well find this assumption to be sorely tested.

I personally have mixed feelings about monogamy. The older I get, the more I come to conclude that monogamy is for many people an unreasonable demand/expectation. Some people are well-suited for monogamy, but others, both men and women, are not. Similarly, some people have very strong sex drives, others not so strong. To me, demanding that someone who is not well-suited to monogamy to be monogamous his/her own life is not too different from demanding that someone with same sex attractions refrain from acting on those attractions. (It should be clear from this that I see nothing inherently morally wrong with sex outside of marriage. I don't think sex all that big of a deal to merit so much moral angst.) There is only so much 'hypocrisy' and moral failing around sex in our culture because our culture has chosen to make such a big deal about it and adopt such a rigid religious-centric view of it--and marriage.

I believe monogamy to be a mostly cultural construct and not an 'eternal' or 'natural' moral truth. It has not been the norm for as long as humans have existed--at least for men (although presumably they've been having sex with someone and not all of them are gay), and certainly has not been the norm among the privileged classes or among the powerful.

Also, let's face it. Many people are not getting their emotional, psychological, and sexual needs met by their spouses, but are not at the same time willing to give up their children or their financial security or their marriage. Human relationships are complex and full of morally gray area, and over time, I find the black and white moral perspectives on these and other issues offered by a sexually uptight religious world view to be less and less satisfying, morally, intellectually, and just about every other way.
 
bro its not a religious thing at all, at least not for me and probz alot of other peoples. discuss theories and natural instincts all u want. if OP's ex felt it was natural then she shoulda just admitted it and came clean. the cheating act itself isnt really the problem bros. its the lying, hiding, etc.
 
HeavenHarris said:
bro its not a religious thing at all, at least not for me and probz alot of other peoples. discuss theories and natural instincts all u want. if OP's ex felt it was natural then she shoulda just admitted it and came clean. the cheating act itself isnt really the problem bros. its the lying, hiding, etc.
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I don't disagree. Relationships don't function well without trust, honesty, etc. Don't confuse my general feelings on the broader subject of monogamy from what I think about the specific case at hand.

It may or may not be a religious issue in this specific case, but Western Culture's views of sex, marriage, and morality are infused through and through with religious beliefs/philosophies so much so that they simply cannot be separated. Thus, while in this case our friend may not see this as a religious issue, the cultural values that likely are influencing how he processes this event, have a definite and strong religious component. For whatever that's worth.

I'm not trying to derail the post into a religious discussion either. Just sharing some things I've been thinking about that are somewhat related to the topic. You can take or leave them, doesn't matter to me.

As a side note, I travel a lot for work and see first hand a great deal of sexual shenanigans going on. It has gotten me to thinking more about this issue and trying to understand it.
 
HeavenHarris said:
bro its not a religious thing at all, at least not for me and probz alot of other peoples. discuss theories and natural instincts all u want. if OP's ex felt it was natural then she shoulda just admitted it and came clean. the cheating act itself isnt really the problem bros. its the lying, hiding, etc.
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Yeah, basically this. You can't excuse past acts of deception by moralizing the subject of the deception. The crime, in my opinion, is more the deception than the act.
 
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