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It aids in the teaching of self respect, respect towards others and body image. To me the value for men and women is the same. It is about how they see themselves and wish to present themselves to the public.

Nothing inherently wrong with not being modest. Just different but different does not mean bad.

Perhaps modesty can be taught in a way that enhances self-respect. However, what I usually read/hear is shame-based modesty. If you felt one of your kids was dressing immodestly, in a manner that indicated a diminished self-respect, what would you say that was not shame-based?
 

I think you for your thoughtful comments. I have a minor point of disagreement: regardless of what she wears, my daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men (and women), and treated as an object by men (and women). The social signal sent out by choosing a miniskirt or a pair of sweat pants will not change that. You don't trust men to behave around a woman in a miniskirt, but you shouldn't trust them if she is wearing sweatpants, either.
 
Perhaps modesty can be taught in a way that enhances self-respect. However, what I usually read/hear is shame-based modesty. If you felt one of your kids was dressing immodestly, in a manner that indicated a diminished self-respect, what would you say that was not shame-based?

Lol. No matter what I say you're going to say it's shame based.
 
Shame is a social construct. It's what separates man from the animals. The only way to eradicate it would be to have a social system of pure chaos.
 
I think you for your thoughtful comments. I have a minor point of disagreement: regardless of what she wears, my daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men (and women), and treated as an object by men (and women). The social signal sent out by choosing a miniskirt or a pair of sweat pants will not change that. You don't trust men to behave around a woman in a miniskirt, but you shouldn't trust them if she is wearing sweatpants, either.

regarding what young (teen-age, pre-teen and college-age) women wear, and whether or not they're judged and/or harassed, I think what they might experience from their female peers is more worrisome/damaging than what they are most likely to experience from men...


to some degree, it very well just may be about intentionally provoking a reaction
 
regarding what young (teen-age, pre-teen and college-age) women wear, and whether or not they're judged and/or harassed, I think what they might experience from their female peers is more worrisome/damaging than what they are most likely to experience from men...


to some degree, it very well just may be about intentionally provoking a reaction

Agree with both points.

So, so crude to put it this way, but... It's a little bit like choosing to bag/elevate your comestibles at night when you're camping in the mountains. Does it guarantee that a bear or a raccoon or whatever will not get to them? No, but it does drastically reduce the chances, and is a lot safer decision than keeping them with you in the tent. As OB pointed out, some people-- men and women alike-- are so unaware of why they think the way they do that they will objectify attractive, thin women no matter what they wear. I agree with this. But is it untrue that choosing against obviously provocative attire makes a woman less of a target of prejudice, discrimination, crime, etc.? That's a genuine question, by the way-- I don't presume to know the answer, despite my personal opinions. As a parent, I want my daughter to know she can be attractive and fashionable, and do so without being victimized or scorned. It's her choice, ultimately, but she needs to know she almost certainly will be drawing unwanted attention to herself, and for really no good reason.
 
I think you for your thoughtful comments. I have a minor point of disagreement: regardless of what she wears, my daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men (and women), and treated as an object by men (and women). The social signal sent out by choosing a miniskirt or a pair of sweat pants will not change that. You don't trust men to behave around a woman in a miniskirt, but you shouldn't trust them if she is wearing sweatpants, either.

Whatever a person chooses to wear makes a statement about that person.
The statement a person is making may not be what the people viewing that person think it means.
Clothing is a form of communication whether you like it or not.

In the example (picture) provided, what this girl's statement is in her mind, and what other people view her statement is can be completely different.
It is up to interpretation.

If for instance if she is a guest at your local nudist colony, maybe she is covering up because she's not yet comfortable going all out yet.

If she is in a place where all of the other girls are dressed like her, she may be trying to blend in and not be seen.

If she is hanging out with the local FLDS Jazzfanz, she may be saying "look at me, I'm hawt", or "I'm not one of you".

My guess would be that if she's a regular teen in the US, she wants boys/girls to look at her and want's some attention.

It's a two way street, if you don't want certain attention then don't advertise for that attention whether intentional or unintentional.

You can't pick how other people will translate what you are wearing to mean, but you can minimize or maximize it by dressing differently.
If you dress in a suit and tie and put a black name tag on, then walk around in Utah you are just going to have to get used to people calling you Elder.
If you wear an Army uniform and go about your business you will most likely be asked questions about where you served and might even get a thank you.
If you wear a lifeguard uniform while enjoying a day at the beach, you may be asked to help if someone is in trouble in the water.
If you walk around Target with tan pants and a red shirt you will most likely be asked where stuff is.

What you wear says something about you to other people. It can be absolutely wrong, but that's just how it is.
Half of the equation is what message you are giving off, the other half is how others will react to it.
Does this girl dressing in a short skirt and showing off some skin say something about her, absolutely.
Does this tell others much about who this girl is or what truly makes her who she is, not at all.
One thing is certain to me, she is asking for attention. The uncertain thing for me is if she will get the type of attention she is looking for, no clue because I don't know her or her environment.

As to you (OB) stating your daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men and women and treated as an object by men and women no matter what she wears... I'm not sure I agree, but for arguments sake lets say this is true. I would still make the point that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances. It might still happen but to a much greater or lesser degree depending on the situation and what is being worn.
 
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It's her choice, ultimately, but she needs to know she almost certainly will be drawing unwanted attention to herself, and for really no good reason.

I think "unwanted" is a key word here. Dressing in a miniskirt probably will attract more attention, but will it attract more unwanted attention?

If you don't want someone's attention, you send out social signals. It might be clothing, an all-day signal, or it might be short-term, like not looking at them and not smiling. Are there a sizable percentage of people who ignore the latter type of social signal but honor the first type?
 
Whatever a person chooses to wear makes a statement about that person.
The statement a person is making may not be what the people viewing that person think it means.
Clothing is a form of communication whether you like it or not.

I had already said as much before you posted this.

In the example (picture) provided, what this girl's statement is in her mind, and what other people view her statement is can be completely different.
It is up to interpretation.

I agree with your dissection of some of the contexts.

As to you (OB) stating your daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men and women and treated as an object by men and women no matter what she wears... I'm not sure I agree, but for arguments sake lets say this is true.

Well, I don't have personal experience, but I trust what women say on the matter. It's easy enough to find stories of women who were sexually harassed in business attire, sweat clothes, or while wearing parkas.

I would still make the point that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances. It might still happen but to a much greater or lesser degree depending on the situation and what is being worn.

I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.
 
Originally Posted by Triangle Man
I would still make the point that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances. It might still happen but to a much greater or lesser degree depending on the situation and what is being worn.


I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.

So do you believe that an average appearing woman wearing a relatively modest bikini at the beach would attract the same attention if she wore that same attire in her front yard while gardening?

Personally, I think at the beach she'd pretty much be ignored, but in her front yard she'd attract quite a few stares...
But I accept your choice to disagree.
 
Well, I don't have personal experience, but I trust what women say on the matter. It's easy enough to find stories of women who were sexually harassed in business attire, sweat clothes, or while wearing parkas.
Yes, you can find women that have said as much just like someone else can find women that have not. Your statement here means/changes nothing other than show you as taking what some women may or may not have said as the standard. I find when you resort to statements like this to prove you are on solid ground very similar to the commercials that say 8 out of 10 dentists prefer "insert toothpaste" over other brands. The question I always have is, which 8 and which 10 dentists out of the many thousands that are out there?


I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.

Of course not, because it doesn't align with your cause in this thread. That would be counter productive. 8 out of 10 white knights also see no reason to believe it or even consider it for that matter.
 
So, uh, what's the story behind how you found that first one? Just curious. I mean, did you google "bulging speedos" the way you did "sagging pants"?

....don't actually recall, but I typed something in that came to mind as being "immodest" male attire! Perhaps you could come up with something else that is also immodest male attire?
 
Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?
 
Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?

I would say no. Perhaps it might even lessen those occurrences.
 
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