gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Hayward is the best SG we have right now. Therefore I think he HAS earned them. All he learns from watching Bell and Miles play is how to do it wrong.
Corbin - please start Favors/Hayward the rest of the way
- Thread starter udflyer
- Start date
Hayward is the best SG we have right now. Therefore I think he HAS earned them. All he learns from watching Bell and Miles play is how to do it wrong.
kwb
Well-Known Member
I really don't get how any coach, no matter what level of coaching doesn't get this. I've seen high school coaches play freshman because they produce more than the seniors. At this level of play, it's about winning and not who has been in the league the longest. It's like Corbin throws Bell out there and thinks, "Let's hope he turns it around tonight." The only thing that will change this scenario is this, "Raja Bell announces his retirement from the NBA."
The scenario about Hayward, "He's playing better than CJ and we win with him in the game but he's still a rookie. Get in there CJ!"
The scenario about Hayward, "He's playing better than CJ and we win with him in the game but he's still a rookie. Get in there CJ!"
candrew
Well-Known Member
Favors has obviously hit the rookie wall. But the rookie wall is mental just as much as it is physical.
The kid has had a trying rookie season - he's never been out of Georgia in his life and the second he gets drafted he's already part of trade rumors that last almost 60 games into the season.
He'll be fine - put him out there and make him play through it. Millsap and Jefferson are playing too many minutes anyway.
The kid has had a trying rookie season - he's never been out of Georgia in his life and the second he gets drafted he's already part of trade rumors that last almost 60 games into the season.
He'll be fine - put him out there and make him play through it. Millsap and Jefferson are playing too many minutes anyway.
Not being the coach, and watching few games, I have no opinion on that.
That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. Overvaluing rookies, and overlooking their mistakes,is a luxury fans can afford and coaches can not.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Noted.
But... tell me... why did your opinion proceed to the point that it did before you cut it off? curious, no?
Not statistically. He has a higher percentage because he takes fewer outside shots, but hayward shoots worse from every range. Hayward commits more offensive fouls, turns the ball over more, etc.
Little confused on this part One Brow. Hayward actually makes very few mistakes. That is one of the reasons I like him. He plays with in himself and in the flow of the game. Doesn't force up bad shots. Makes good entry passes and stays with his man. If you think Raja is better on Offense than Hayward you aren't watching the games. All Raja does is shoot jump shots. Hayward can actually take the ball to the rim. And with time well finish better.
CJ on the other hand can get to the rim every bit as well as Hayward. But just choses not to. All he wants to do is shoot the 3 and CJ is a horrible defender. Hayward is the best wing we have right now because he can give us something on both sides of the ball. Raja no O and CJ no D. I would rather see Hayward on the floor than ether of them.
Because I have grave doubts that the posters on a message board are a better judge of who should be playing than the coaches, and in particular are bad judges of rookies.
Is it that, or is it that you tend not to notice the mistakes. Again, the statistics don't bear this out.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
But, I'm sure you would kindly realize that your opinion means much less than someone who watches the games, right?
Raja has been bloody horrible all season long, in virtually every facet of the game. Anybody who watches the game will immediately attest to this fact. And, the outlook for this season is suddenly changing into non-playoff atmosphere, which is a new dimension when it comes to playing time, etc. What I'm trying to say is this: these are NEW issues, and your non-watching opinion has little value.
Considering that a good majority of the TO's you are pointing out are Offensive fouls that he gets while actually attacking the basket instead of just shooting a jump shot because it is easier. Then Yes I guess I do tend not to notice those mistakes because they are actually the right thing to do. He just hasn't quite learned how to avoid those yet. But he well, and I would rather see those kind of mistakes (trying) than a missed contested jump shot (the easy way out) any day.
Since my opinion is highly neutral (basically worth zero), it's worse than knowledgeable people who watch games. However, since the value of the opinions of some posters is actually negative to to factors that cause them to misinterpret what they see when they watch games, it may not mean less than any particular poster who watches games. A few posters on here have some serious basketball knowledge, but they have not shimed in on this topic so far.
That's exactly the kind of statement that tells me you're not looking at the game objectively. He has brought some positives as well as some negatives, compared to Hayward, in the games I have seen.
I agree my opinion's value is close to zero.
It's better to get offensive fouls than to shoot from range or pass the ball? Interesting coach you would make. I agree the attitude and attempt is a positive, but Hayward is still doing the wrong thing.
The value of playing "new" vets inspite of them underperforming can be seen in Big Al's performance this year. He is a different player now (see the Feb stats) that he's been given so much playing time. Raja was suppopsed to have the same results. He hasn't.
I'm not a fan of just playing rookies to give them experience any more than i'm for vets playing becuase they're vets. I do believe in the rookie wall. In nearly all situations a freshman is a much different maturity level than a sophmore. So giving Hayward enough minutes is important - especially at this point, but not so much to just burn him or risk injury. Similarly, Raja is an investment that i would want to optimize. Just sitting him and playing Hayward 40 mins is rediculous of course, but i think he could use some rest as well...
I'm not a fan of just playing rookies to give them experience any more than i'm for vets playing becuase they're vets. I do believe in the rookie wall. In nearly all situations a freshman is a much different maturity level than a sophmore. So giving Hayward enough minutes is important - especially at this point, but not so much to just burn him or risk injury. Similarly, Raja is an investment that i would want to optimize. Just sitting him and playing Hayward 40 mins is rediculous of course, but i think he could use some rest as well...
I agree. If they're struggling put the other vets in, but as of now they are playing the best consistant ball and need the most PT for the team to improve. Seems like a no brianer to me, but the veteran playing times/starting philosophy seems to be entrenched in this team.
Funny thing about that is I am a HS coach. And right now am going into the playoffs as a second seed.
I think you are missing the Point I am trying to make. The point is that Raja who plays pretty good defense and gets away with a lot of things due to reputation has killed us all year long with his poor shooting and inability to take the ball to the basket allowing other teams to put who ever they want on him and not having to worry that he is going to hurt them by breaking down there defense. Hayward gets all kinds of fouls called on him that no on else on the team would get because he is a rookie. CJ on the other hand has shoot us into a few games this year. But is so inconsistant that if he misses a few shots down goes the head and there goes the effort. Hayward has a ton of faults. I not disputing you there. But having watched every game but a few this year you can tell he is willing to do what it takes on both sides of the ball. He plays good man defense. He was the only player in the Knick game last night that could drop down to help and still get back to his man because he hedged the right way. And over all runs the offense and tries to get easer shots than jacking up a long jumper. His passing has been very good this year and is the one part of his game that exceeds Raja and CJ by a lot.
Is an offensive foul better than a shot from Range from outside? No of course not. But at least he is trying to make something happen instead of jacking up a miss. Which is what happens most of the time if the others are in the game. You can't judge a way a player is playing by stats alone. Hayward has been pretty good for a 20 year old rookie that has played in 60 games. And IMO a lot better than CJ and Raja who have Years of experiance. So in this wreck of a season why not play Hayward who need to learn how to not make some of the mistakes he is making.
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NAOS
Well-Known Member
What Hayward are we talking about here? The player from the first 40 games of the season, or the player that is on a modestly rapid development trajectory? You can't speak of Hayward in the general as you've done here. Also, you don't respond to my claims about the trajectory of the season, which changes everything.
Also, find me ONE statistical category that bodes well for Raja Bell. kthx.
We agree on this
just because
Well-Known Member
I disagree with this 100%. As a coach (which I am) I would much rather have my players driving for layups than jump shots from distance. The percentages don't lie. You make a lot more close shots than you do 25 ft jumpers. It's a no brainer, if you go 4 of 5 and get to the line a few times or you go 3 for 11 which happened in the last game then it's better to get a couple of offensive fouls.
So old players with bad habits/bad play should get more playing time because....?
candrew
Well-Known Member
Good point. One of the few positives this season has been watching Hayward come along as a player. His numbers have improved each month and while I wouldn't say he's playing with a great deal of confidence, he's not playing scared either.
He has an outside chance to finish 50% from the field and 40% from three - that's a hell of a foundation for a 20 year old to build on. I don't know where the kid is going to end up; but we won't know watching him ride the pine.
Besides, what's the purpose of playing Miles or Bell anyway? Bell is just about done and Miles' performance Monday made it clear he doesn't want to stay in Utah. Let The Jazz keep the 3.7 million and he can go look for a job with another team.