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Could Our Education System Soon Look Like This?

DutchJazzer said:
sorry i meant unions interest. but first should come the childrens education.

if the gov is not involved in education it is something private. you know what comes first? the interest of the people paying them aka the parents and children.

but if the governemtn is doing the interest of government, unions and all other DUBIOUS organization comes first
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I'm not to high on purely private education. There needs to be at least some level of gov involvement.

But I hate the current curriculum and how and what things are taught.
 
babe said:
I grew up hearing people talk like this, and I wasted a lot of time trying to conform to the ideals you embrace. I have come to recognize the power of compulsory indoctrination and "religious" teaching in a closed social system you don't have the "right" to escape. And yes, JEJ, that's is my estimate of your product. You believe what you've been taught. Other than that, probably a nice guy.

Science has nothing to do with our ideals of society. Science, math, technology are neutral on that dimension, or should be. That's why every kind of philosophy of education more or less teaches the same on objective knowledge.... or should.... let's say.
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Jesus H. Christ :rolleyes: I have a soft spot for you Babe, but you've really jumped the shark with this one.

Science has everythign to do with ideals of society, as does literature, as do the arts, as do sports, etc. They are all part of what consitutes our culture. Western Culture is, in fact, built in large part on science, scientific method, rational thought, etc. etc.

Honestly, how does someone come to think like this? I find this to be a fascinating question.
 
NAOS said:
I hear you. But I worked in public education. In a couple of very different positions/perspectives. There's a helluva lot of it that should be torn up. There are massive, paradigmatic problems. It would be interesting to essay about why these paradigms were so productive at their moment in history; but paradigms don't stay consistently productive, and many of these ones are on their way out. IMO.
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I don't disputre any other this. My larger point is the critical role played by universal public education in advancing the general welfare (social, economic, political, cultural, etc.) of our society and it creating a more level playing field in which there abound opportunities for wide-spread personal advancement (and not just limited to elites) that would never have existed under any of the other education systems heretofore existing.

I concede that it likely has all sorts of problems and is rife for reform in a variety of ways. It's far from perfect, but far, far better than a market-based education system (we sort of have this in a way with property tax-based funding of schools in many places, and we see how well that works in terms of producing fair outcomes) or a religiously-based education system (yep, nothing like mixing the 3 Rs with teaching that some 800 year old guy took all the animals in the world on a boat ride because some manic depressive, vengeful deity dediced to off everyone because he was pissed off at them). The fact that somethign has flaws, even significant flaws, is not sufficient to ditch it when the overall benefit it produces is so vast. People's obsession with finding the 'perfect' solution is strange, because it doesn't exist. It's always about tradeoffs, and here, the tradeoffs are obvious and they are HUGE in favor of universal public education.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I don't disputre any other this. My larger point is the critical role played by universal public education in advancing the general welfare (social, economic, political, cultural, etc.) of our society and it creating a more level playing field in which there abound opportunities for wide-spread personal advancement (and not just limited to elites) that would never have existed under any of the other education systems heretofore existing.

I concede that it likely has all sorts of problems and is rife for reform in a variety of ways. It's far from perfect, but far, far better than a market-based education system (we sort of have this in a way with property tax-based funding of schools in many places, and we see how well that works in terms of producing fair outcomes) or a religiously-based education system (yep, nothing like mixing the 3 Rs with teaching that some 800 year old guy took all the animals in the world on a boat ride because some manic depressive, vengeful deity dediced to off everyone because he was pissed off at them). The fact that somethign has flaws, even significant flaws, is not sufficient to ditch it when the overall benefit it produces is so vast. People's obsession with finding the 'perfect' solution is strange, because it doesn't exist. It's always about tradeoffs, and here, the tradeoffs are obvious and they are HUGE in favor of universal public education.
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Agreed. From the perspective of the health of mass culture, this looks nothing like a path to reform that I would support. At all.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I don't disputre any other this. My larger point is the critical role played by universal public education in advancing the general welfare (social, economic, political, cultural, etc.) of our society and it creating a more level playing field in which there abound opportunities for wide-spread personal advancement (and not just limited to elites) that would never have existed under any of the other education systems heretofore existing.
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and that was the point of my question about education being the "glue" that unifies our culture/society

and I don't understand all the angst about government control of public education - it's pretty much the local school board that have the most control over a community's school system. Sure there are certain requirements that are set at the state level, and perhaps a few determined at the federal level, but for the most part the local school boards have enormous control over most aspects of the educational system

some of these posts just aren't making any sense in the context of the current situation
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
teaching that some 800 year old guy took all the animals in the world on a boat ride because some manic depressive, vengeful deity dediced to off everyone because he was pissed off at them)
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Well when you put it like that it sounds nonsensical. ;)
 
Stoked said:
Teachers are an integral part of education. Their voices should absolutely be heard.

That's like saying that law enforcement isn't about cops so we should ignore their voice.

Come on...
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Wrong. Education isn't about the teachers, and law enforcement isn't about the cops, either.

These people are public servants and if they don't serve, or if they wanna run the govt policy to suit themselves, they need be fired.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
Jesus H. Christ :rolleyes: I have a soft spot for you Babe, but you've really jumped the shark with this one.

Science has everythign to do with ideals of society, as does literature, as do the arts, as do sports, etc. They are all part of what consitutes our culture. Western Culture is, in fact, built in large part on science, scientific method, rational thought, etc. etc.

Honestly, how does someone come to think like this? I find this to be a fascinating question.
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I understand that teachers generally have had to comply with a certain line of education to get a "license" from the State that certifies they are compliant statists with the requisite "progressive" indoctrination. Sorry you've been so abused in your path of life. You've been shown a shadow on the cave wall that creates the sense that you are seeing reality. I truly feel for such benighted prisoners of the State. Yet you go forth to serve and enlighten, with every presumed good intention.

In the sixties there was a song about "another brick in the wall". Wonder if you ever pondered its words.

When I heard that song, I didn't agree with it. I just realized that if I wanted an education I needed to sorta look past the teachers, take a peek over that wall.

I worked for a leading educator, the dean at the college, and the president of some pretty prestigious professional associations, as well as the number one officer in his Church education system. I argued with him, too.

He wrote books on Science and Religion, and moved his Church away from the strict Biblical allegorical interpretation. He believed the geologists. He said he didn't know how the Earth was created, and took the position that however the Earth was created, or Life was created, that was his "religion" because any God worth consideration would believe the truth whatever it was.

You should consider that if you hold fundamentalist religions to the truth or falseness of a story thousands of years old, it is like deciding you won't believe in Science because, well, the scientists were wrong about the Earth being flat.

I personally consider the legends in the Bible to be just that. Some priests or scribes in the employ of Solomon who wanted to create a State Religion.

But nobody believes Christianity because they believe in a miraculous natural world, nobody believes in Judaism or Islam because the Creation legend is fact. Religion is not science, it is the love of mankind or the worship of a Being supposed to have higher authority than man. It is mankind's' escape from the logical trap of his own mind..... or perhaps another way to embrace that trap. Different strokes for different folks.

Science is a method on enquiry that is an attempt to evaluate objectively the information we can derive from nature, following axiomatic rules of procedure hopefully which put the facts above our prejudices, or our politics.

Science is corrupted by interested politicians with an agenda to derive a certain result when research is selected or interpreted to secure approval from politicians.

The Arts and other human avenues of achievement, understanding or expression are similarly corrupted when a government puts a heavy authoritarian thumb on the human spirit and human mind.
 
@Everyone:

I know in JFCland I might seem like a political space alien trying to pose as a human. Pretty sure some of the things I say might seem like another dimension of existence, and "alt Universe" if you will.

So here is a primer, a sort of Rosetta Stone for the clueless who speak and think the language of conformity.

I'm something else.

The last historical step forward in human progress was the American Revolution. Ever since we've been going backwards toward feudalism. Feudalist Europe was the epitome of socialism. After the American Revolution, there were some very concerned folks hanging out in the pubs and parlors around Oxford, worrying about what do to prevent human liberty from spoiling the order of society. I mean, that is, "good society" as it was. And is. Defined by gentlemen of means, of course.

John Dewey was their ambassador to America, on a mission to save elitism by turning Americans back into servants of the gentlemen's clubs. Ring that bell. Make'm get up and move to the next idol/teacher. Sit them down. Train them to the task, convince them there was nothing better than a job. A Corporate job. . . .

John Dewey was not an educator, at all, but the opposite. A genteel devil with the subtlety of a snake, bent on a vision of "society" that could be well managed by his employers.

Three generations of American educators have drunk his cool aid and gone to sleep intellectually and spiritually.
 
just curious - - every place I know of, members of the local public school boards are elected to office - - is that universally true, or are there communities where they are chosen in some other manner?
 
Wait, so let me get this straight. So those in favour of privatization hate the fact that public schools indoctrinate on some minor level so they want to send children to schools with basically mission statements that read straight indoctrination?

I do not get vouchers any more then I get allowing parents to pick which public school there child attends. Send them to the school you are zoned in. All it does when you allow choice is create a nother way for school boards to game the system. They start creating programs to attract, creating alternative testing options an language emersion schools for extra grant money to make up for lost money from poor testing.

All this does is create SEGREGATION an waste taxpayer money.

Zone this **** an tell them to go to that school or move or pay for your own schooling. End of story.
 
In Utah they are "elected", but it was a closed system where established educators selected who could get on the ballot. However, somehow some moms got so enraged about common core and being told they had no choice there has event revolution. The governor was forced to cave and nominate some of them and they won the election.
 
Boris,you have a point. Vouchers address that somewhat because even if they must be used to choose XA public school, the really bad schools lose the good students and the money that walks with them.

Black students who want to achieve can go to better schools.
 
The US Senate has confirmed President Donald Trump's controversial nominee for education secretary, Betsy DeVos, by the slenderest possible margin.

US Vice-President Mike Pence cast the tie-breaking vote to secure her cabinet role, splitting the chamber 50-50.

It was the first time ever that a vice-president has interceded in such a way for a cabinet secretary.

Mrs DeVos, a billionaire who has no experience with public schools, faced a rocky confirmation hearing last month.

Moments after voting ended, she tweeted: "I appreciate the Senate's diligence & am honored to serve as @usedgov Secretary.

"Let's improve options & outcomes for all US students."

Senate Democrats staged a 24-hour debate into Tuesday to hold up her confirmation.

They hoped their all-night speaking marathon would pressure more Republican senators to oppose the nomination, but their efforts were in vain.

Mr Pence was also the first vice-president to cast a deciding vote in the Senate since 2008, when Dick Cheney voted on a tax adjustment plan.

No Democrats voted in favour of Mrs DeVos. Two Republican senators stood by their plan to oppose her confirmation, leaving the Senate in a deadlock.

In the end Donald Trump is going to get the team he wants.

Betsy DeVos's education secretary nomination looked a bit shaky for a while, but no Republican senator seems willing to be the third "no" vote that would sink her.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson's ties to Russia made some conservatives uneasy, and prompted sharp questioning from Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, but the former oil magnate's party closed ranks behind him.

The only real question mark left is labour secretary nominee Andrew Puzdner, whose confirmation hearings have been postponed four times amid reports that he has not fully disentangled himself from his sprawling fast-food business empire.

If he withdraws, however, it will be quietly, before a confrontation with Democrats heats up.

Democrats always faced an uphill battle in bringing down any of Mr Trump's cabinet nominees, given the mathematical reality of being in the Senate minority.

Republicans were loath to deal an early, embarrassing setback to the new president, possibly earning his long-term enmity.

The fight over Mrs DeVos and other nominees has engaged the Democratic base, however.

Now the question is whether they will stay engaged in the months and years ahead - or if this initial surge of activism will recede over time.

Critics say Mrs DeVos, who advocates for charter schools, is not qualified to run the Department of Education.

She faced intense scrutiny before a Senate committee in January, when she made headlines for noting that a Wyoming school might need a gun to defend against grizzly bears.

Labour unions, rights groups and teaching organisations have also spoken out against her nomination.

Groups including the American Federation of Teachers and the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights held protests against Mrs DeVos outside of Congress on Monday evening.
In the end Donald Trump is going to get the team he wants.

Betsy DeVos's education secretary nomination looked a bit shaky for a while, but no Republican senator seems willing to be the third "no" vote that would sink her.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson's ties to Russia made some conservatives uneasy, and prompted sharp questioning from Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, but the former oil magnate's party closed ranks behind him.

The only real question mark left is labour secretary nominee Andrew Puzdner, whose confirmation hearings have been postponed four times amid reports that he has not fully disentangled himself from his sprawling fast-food business empire.

If he withdraws, however, it will be quietly, before a confrontation with Democrats heats up.

Democrats always faced an uphill battle in bringing down any of Mr Trump's cabinet nominees, given the mathematical reality of being in the Senate minority.

Republicans were loath to deal an early, embarrassing setback to the new president, possibly earning his long-term enmity.

The fight over Mrs DeVos and other nominees has engaged the Democratic base, however.

Now the question is whether they will stay engaged in the months and years ahead - or if this initial surge of activism will recede over time.

Critics say Mrs DeVos, who advocates for charter schools, is not qualified to run the Department of Education.

She faced intense scrutiny before a Senate committee in January, when she made headlines for noting that a Wyoming school might need a gun to defend against grizzly bears.

Labour unions, rights groups and teaching organisations have also spoken out against her nomination.

Groups including the American Federation of Teachers and the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights held protests against Mrs DeVos outside of Congress on Monday evening.
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sauce: BBC
 
Everything happened because of obummer.
Thanks obummer!
 
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