jope
Well-Known Member
I'm saying nba.com and bbref (and most other nba data purveyors) get their data from the same data repository. lol. Its not that hard to understand
Dante Exum re-signed
- Thread starter oneye
- Start date
Where does the data repository come from? And why is that bbref more accurate to you then the NBA?
You are right they are both based on per 100. But their calculations for NBA take in extra data that they have access to. They want their stats to be better than other places.
jope
Well-Known Member
Wow, this is cumbersome to explain to you apparently. They all have the same data lol. They are applying different formulas to said data.
Now, if as you say, the NBA is doing extra stuff to get an "oRtg", then it isnt even an oRtg. oRtg and all the other standard adv stats are standard metrics that have defined formulas.
If what you said is true, then you just confirmed that nba.com is incorrect in their metric calculations for standardized categories and/or are misrepresenting said categories.
jope
Well-Known Member
He played Harden very well. The rest of the year, teams, and opponents, not as much. Thats why metrics matter, at least a little. I like Dante, i only argue that he should've been payed based on his results, not on a "what if", especially when there weren't any other suitors. His results are shotty at best.
Actually I was wrong. I read that from an article but here is the calculation of the data from NBA.com for offensive rating for teams:
100*Points/(Team FGA + Team TOV + (0.44*Team FTA) – Team OREB)
They have a similar basic formula for individuals that is standard.
basketball reference has actually made their calculation much more complex and is too long to post. So I guess based on your assumptions and assertions bball ref is inaccurate.
But I was right that they both get their data from the NBA. The NBA does not release all of their data though. Some of the numbers from basketball are estimated.
I do find bball ref to be a good source for data. I find NBA.com to be much better though. Regardless, it seems like you are trying to find numbers to hurt Exum and ignoring ones that show he is good. I have posted plenty of numbers showing that in his limited minutes and games in the regular season he was one of our better players. Including that he had our best off rating and net rating.
jope
Well-Known Member
According to nba.com , lol. I'm not cherry picking, there are just very few metrics on bbref that support that. (Including that he had our worst off rating and net rating.)
jope
Well-Known Member
BBREF follows the exact oRtg and dRtg formula as published by the creator of the metric. https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
In the playoffs according to a website that by your own standards is inaccurate. Personally I dont think a couple playoffs games is enough to draw a sample size off of for the data to have any accuracy. His regular season games is a much better indicator because the sample size is much larger. But even that is still small. Here are a few other numbers from the regular:
Exum lead our team in Assists per 100 possessions(with less TOVs than Rubio).
Exum was our 2nd leading scorer per 100 possessions just behind Mitchell.
Exum had our highest offensive rating of 109.3
Exum had the 4th highest defensive rating of 98.9 just behind Gobert who was 97.7
Exum had our highest net rating of 10.4
Exum had our 2nd highest Ast/TO rating just behind Ingles
Exum played at the fatest pace of anyone on our team
Exum had our 3rd highest player impact rating on the team just behind Gobert and Favors
Exum had our highest points per possession in pick and roll situations as the ball handler at 0.91 just ahead of Mitchell at 0.81
Exum had our best FG% and EFG% as the pick and roll ball handler
Exum turned the ball over the 3rd least as the ball handler in pick and rolls ahead of Rubio but behind Burks and Mitchell
Exum was in the 80th percentile as the ball handler in pick and rolls in the NBA ahead of anyone on the Jazz by 30%
Exum had the second highest points per possession in isolation plays just behind Rubio
Exum had the best FG% and EFG% in isolation plays for the Jazz at 50%
Exum had the best FG% on the Jazz on Drives
Exum had the 2nd highest Ast % on drives behind Ingles
Exum had the lowest TOV% on drives on the Jazz
Exum had the best DFG% on the team just ahead of Favors and Gobert
Exum had our fastest Average speed while on the court especially on offense
This is from his book for offensive rating for individuals. That is what NBA.com uses.
Offensive Rating = (Points Produced / Individual Possessions) x 100
jope
Well-Known Member
If we keep using differing stat modeling sources to make an argument, there will be no relevant discussion i guess. Because most of the stats ive referenced are the opposite of what you just posted. I'll stop here because its wasting my time. I believe the metrics that say Gobert is mostly good, and Exum is mostly bad, because that's also what i see.
A dude who cant play even half a season, cant play more than 20 mins a game, and who averages 6/2/2 and is now our new Burks contract, until proven otherwise
Well, that is fine if you want to ignore stats from the most accurate place. Lets go with stats from your place.If we keep using differing stat modeling sources to make an argument, there will be no relevant discussion i guess. Because most of the stats ive referenced are the opposite of what you just posted. I'll stop here because its wasting my time. I believe the metrics that say Gobert is mostly good, and Exum is mostly bad, because that's also what i see.
A dude who cant play even half a season, cant play more than 20 mins a game, and who averages 6/2/2 and is now our new Burks contract, until proven otherwise
Lets go by bball ref for your stats.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2018.html
In the regular season(which is a decent enough number of games to start to draw any conclusion from unlike the playoffs):
Exum had our 9th best offensive rating in the regular season at 110. That is better than Rubio (105) Mitchell (103) Burks (102) and Crowder (99)
Exum had the same defensive rating as Crowder and Ingles at 106.
So that gives him a better net rating than Mitchell, Rubio, Royce, Crowder and a bunch of others.
So based on that his contract seems pretty reasonably priced. That is not looking at the future potential either.
Those stats also say that Udoh was better than Gobert both offensively and defensibly btw.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
When I was doing some analysis awhile ago, BBRef was my main, go to place.
Looked up other sites to verify, especially Ortg and Drtg and it was BBRef that was inconsistent with all the other stats I was finding.
Found out BBRef uses an estimate and not the actual numbers.
So I won't use BBRef's Ortg or Drtg ever. Good for other stuff, though.
Looked up other sites to verify, especially Ortg and Drtg and it was BBRef that was inconsistent with all the other stats I was finding.
Found out BBRef uses an estimate and not the actual numbers.
So I won't use BBRef's Ortg or Drtg ever. Good for other stuff, though.
I use bb ref a lot. I love that website. I do prefer NBA.com and they have way more in depth numbers. But I use both. I love the historically data on bb ref. But I also use ESPN sometimes as well. I like their game logs for players and how easy it to find things like how a player did for a month.
He's a really smart player. He almost never hurts the team. Crazy to think how good he could become.
If we keep using differing stat modeling sources to make an argument, there will be no relevant discussion i guess. Because most of the stats ive referenced are the opposite of what you just posted. I'll stop here because its wasting my time. I believe the metrics that say Gobert is mostly good, and Exum is mostly bad, because that's also what i see.
A dude who cant play even half a season, cant play more than 20 mins a game, and who averages 6/2/2 and is now our new Burks contract, until proven otherwise
This is very accurate. The Jazz FO was in a very difficult situation this year they had to decide what was best to do with Exum. In game stats are VERY limited but are they the best reflection of how to move forward. I think the Jazz looked at the other set of stats which shows a lot of promise and upside. The Jazz could have low balled Exum or waited for him to sign and matched which would have made him mad and we could have have a Hayward situation all over again. I find it interesting that people yell at the Jazz if the sit back and wait for other teams to set the market and then match saying that the should just figure out what the player is worth, and then when the Jazz sit are proactive and go do what they think is right people say that they overpaid and should have waited for an offer. The Jazz have a lot of faith in Exum. He has elite speed and length and possibly defense. a lot of the potential he had when we drafted him is still there. He has demonstrated a good attitude and ability to work hard through adverse conditions. The gamble is that this year may be an overpay but subsequent years become a bargain. We shall see.
The opposite of Favors the Jazz possibly paid a little extra annually to Exum to get him to sign for multiple years. I am guessing like almost every FA this year their camp wanted a solid 1 year offer and then chase money next year.
I am glad that we wrapped up his deal quickly and for multiple years. We didnt want to risk him breaking out and having to pay him big money or let him walk next year. Also we didnt want to drag out his FA process like a lot of teams are with their RFA. It creates bad blood and issues.
I am glad that we wrapped up his deal quickly and for multiple years. We didnt want to risk him breaking out and having to pay him big money or let him walk next year. Also we didnt want to drag out his FA process like a lot of teams are with their RFA. It creates bad blood and issues.
//r00t 4 Jazz
Well-Known Member
Hold up.... Wait a minute. People are using stats to prove their own agenda/point? Who'd a thunk that would ever happen.
People that hate the signing and have never liked the draft pick or grew tired of his injuries are showing how bad he sucks and for all intents and purposes seems like he should have been offered whatever the NBA minimum is and even that would be over paying him.
While the people that are either Exum supporters, apologists, Jazz fans that decide to support their team's players all show why he is worth resigning. Although I don't see or remember any saying he is or has shown to this point is his worth 11mil a year but that it was based on potential, investment, chemistry and locker room, slight over pay to show that the Jazz do believe in him and appreciate his attitude and sacrifice for the team.
To continue further then that I'd just be regurgitating the same things that have all been posted in this thread.
For the record I'm more in the I try to be optimistic and try to support the players on the Jazz boat.
So with that said, if only someone on the Jazz had access to all these statistical data and analysis. Also why oh why can't they see that he has missed so many games so he clearly will always and with certainty continue to miss games. Why can't the Jazz see that despite only playing in a small amount of games last season and in the playoffs after coming back from yet another injury that his stats suck and in no way shape or form should any expectations be adjusted for small sample sizes, for playing himself back into shape, any confidence and mental issues that arise when coming back from injury and joining a team who has chemistry and is in full stride for a playoff push. None of that matters he should've hit the ground running and contributing from game 1, from minute 1.
People that hate the signing and have never liked the draft pick or grew tired of his injuries are showing how bad he sucks and for all intents and purposes seems like he should have been offered whatever the NBA minimum is and even that would be over paying him.
While the people that are either Exum supporters, apologists, Jazz fans that decide to support their team's players all show why he is worth resigning. Although I don't see or remember any saying he is or has shown to this point is his worth 11mil a year but that it was based on potential, investment, chemistry and locker room, slight over pay to show that the Jazz do believe in him and appreciate his attitude and sacrifice for the team.
To continue further then that I'd just be regurgitating the same things that have all been posted in this thread.
For the record I'm more in the I try to be optimistic and try to support the players on the Jazz boat.
So with that said, if only someone on the Jazz had access to all these statistical data and analysis. Also why oh why can't they see that he has missed so many games so he clearly will always and with certainty continue to miss games. Why can't the Jazz see that despite only playing in a small amount of games last season and in the playoffs after coming back from yet another injury that his stats suck and in no way shape or form should any expectations be adjusted for small sample sizes, for playing himself back into shape, any confidence and mental issues that arise when coming back from injury and joining a team who has chemistry and is in full stride for a playoff push. None of that matters he should've hit the ground running and contributing from game 1, from minute 1.