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Dat Prom Dress Doe

Siro said:
There seems to be some confusion about the cultural appropriation argument. It has nothing to do with "mocking" anyone. It's a hard left argument for those who see the West as cultural imperialists. It is specifically about white people using, in any capacity, cultural elements from non-white cultures. It only applies to whites, and it's not related to respect.

The guy complaining in the article holds that view, given his mention of consumerism and what have you.
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I have a Native American friend who is a big advocate against cultural appropriation. He's explained, very thoughtfully his views and why he finds certain things offensive. His views has definitely helped me understand cultural appropriation to a certain degree. I can't get behind a lot of what he finds offensive though.

One time, he went to a SF Giant game during Native American night. Him and his wife saw some white guy wearing a headdress and went to his section to call him out and to tell him to take it off while filming the incident. His wife got in his face and demanded the headdress until he gave it to her then they took off. They were then approached by police for doing that and didn't comply and were arrested all the while the screamed at the cops for being racists and acted like martyrs. To me, it was ridiculous on their part. It would be like, to me, LDS people demanding conference protestors to take off their garments because they find it offensive. You may not like what someone is doing, but they have the right to do or wear that.

Bruno Mars being attacked for cultural appropriation is silly to me too. Same with the whole dreadlock thing.

All this is easy for me to say cause I'm an average white dude. I'm sure I'd have a different opinion or perspective if I wasn't.
 
Archie Moses said:
I see what you're saying. I think it's more of a reaction of being tired of people's sensitivity. Sure, you can brush it under the rug, but I think it's fair to have an reaction and opinion on it too without being the overly sensitive offended guy.
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Why should anyone be bothered by other people's sensitivity? Dr. Jones and Wes Mantooth have every right to be upset if they are. I have every right to enjoy pointing out the irony of it.
 
One Brow said:
:rolleyes:

This thread is more than enough proof of how over-sensitive the right is. You can't tolerate complaints about someone that'snot even you without some sort of protest. There is no more sensitive group, none more protective of it's feelings, than white male right-wingers.
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Who are you to be insensitive to those you perceive as insensitive in your world view?

Is it OB self contradiction week?
 
Archie Moses said:
I have a Native American friend who is a big advocate against cultural appropriation. He's explained, very thoughtfully his views and why he finds certain things offensive. His views has definitely helped me understand cultural appropriation to a certain degree. I can't get behind a lot of what he finds offensive though.

One time, he went to a SF Giant game during Native American night. Him and his wife saw some white guy wearing a headdress and went to his section to call him out and to tell him to take it off while filming the incident. His wife got in his face and demanded the headdress until he gave it to her then they took off. They were then approached by police for doing that and didn't comply and were arrested all the while the screamed at the cops for being racists and acted like martyrs. To me, it was ridiculous on their part. It would be like, to me, LDS people demanding conference protestors to take off their garments because they find it offensive. You may not like what someone is doing, but they have the right to do or wear that.

Bruno Mars being attacked for cultural appropriation is silly to me too. Same with the whole dreadlock thing.

All this is easy for me to say cause I'm an average white dude. I'm sure I'd have a different opinion or perspective if I wasn't.
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The Native American **** is different tho. There are barely any Native Americans left and our ancestors basically wiped them out in a really brutal way. It's like African Americans and slavery. Our ancestors did some really ****ed up **** and they are still feeling the repercussions of that so you should be a bit more sensitive to their stuff.
 
Archie's story was not an example of appropriation. The Natives are objecting to what they see as an insult to them and their history. Like the Redskins controversy. It's a separate issue.

An example of appropriation would be a white person opening a Mexican restaurant.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
The Native American **** is different tho. There are barely any Native Americans left and our ancestors basically wiped them out in a really brutal way. It's like African Americans and slavery. Our ancestors did some really ****ed up **** and they are still feeling the repercussions of that so you should be a bit more sensitive to their stuff.
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I agree.
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
Who are you to be insensitive to those you perceive as insensitive in your world view?

Is it OB self contradiction week?
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Did you mistype that? I said they were sensitive. I make that point only because some claim not to be, but rationalize their sensitivity in other ways.

However, I have no problem with containing self-contradictions. I'm a human, not a logic puzzle.
 
One Brow said:
Did you mistype that? I said they were sensitive. I make that point only because some claim not to be, but rationalize their sensitivity in other ways.

However, I have no problem with containing self-contradictions. I'm a human, not a logic puzzle.
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You're a human? I doubt that! I demand proof.
 
I blame imported Mexican beer companies for the cultural appropriation of Cinco de Mayo. How dare those Mexicans hypnotize us Americans into celebrating Mexico's unlikely victory over a French intrusion and make us look like insensitive idiots!
 
Siro said:
An example of appropriation would be a white person opening a Mexican restaurant.
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Can you give an example of where sharing culture in this way is wrong? I'm sure they are out there, such as non-LDS sanctioned store selling garments (to hit home). But i think that envelope isn't packed very full.

Wearing a Native American ceremonial headdress is over the line IMO but dressing up in war paint isn't, unless they show us how that was some spiritual ritual as well ( point to @Ron Mexico for being open to listening to earlier).

But if I open a cliff diving entertainment restaurant in South Salt Lake am I guilty? If so, we all need to quit being Jazz fans.
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
Can you give an example of where sharing culture in this way is wrong? I'm sure they are out there, such as non-LDS sanctioned store selling garments (to hit home). But i think that envelope isn't packed very full.

Wearing a Native American ceremonial headdress is over the line IMO but dressing up in war paint isn't, unless they show us how that was some spiritual ritual as well ( point to @Ron Mexico for being open to listening to earlier).

But if I open a cliff diving entertainment restaurant in South Salt Lake am I guilty? If so, we all need to quit being Jazz fans.
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I'm not really an expert on that ideology. But it has to do with a dominant culture profiting from a minority culture, thus further increasing the imbalance of power between these two groups.

In the West, it only applies to whites using things from other cultures. If a Mexican opens an Irish themed bar, the appropriation crowd would not object. They would object to the opposite.

Maybe @dalamon knows more. He's our resident leftist.
 
Rubashov said:
Mexicans aren't white?



You've got to be kidding?
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Race is not a real biological thing. What is and isn't white is a matter of public perception. Mexico is not seen as white, and thus is not white (except for those of 'pure' European ancestry, and that's a tiny percentage of Mexicans).

And I'm not kidding. Are you jealous? You want the position? You make the occasional pinko post, but Dalamon has a history of rigorous defense of the modern progressive movement.
 
Siro said:
I'm not really an expert on that ideology. But it has to do with a dominant culture profiting from a minority culture, thus further increasing the imbalance of power between these two groups.

In the West, it only applies to whites using things from other cultures. If a Mexican opens an Irish themed bar, the appropriation crowd would not object. They would object to the opposite.

Maybe @dalamon knows more. He's our resident leftist.
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That's entirely it in a nutshell-- when you have a dominant culture oppressing a minority, and then appropriating these holidays for enjoyment/financial profit it feels like yet another tool of oppression-- for example, trump voters yelling "CINCO DE DRINKOOO" but then voting for a president who dehumanizes Mexican people, evicts Mexican-Americans with ICE, and so forth.

It's a difficult, nuanced thing-- for example, omnipresent paisley design is appropriated from Zoroastrian representations of Zoroaster's "flame"-- which is interesting because the term 'paisley' comes from a Scottish town (and not its origin). But everyone still wears paisley and no one really cares about it.

Fundamentally, the way I see it, the adopting of cultural motifs primarily becomes problematic when that's a minority that is oppressed-- it's a spectrum, of course. A select very few Italians might be upset if you dress up as a gangster with a tommy gun for Halloween, but much more people would be upset if Ralph Lauren (yet again) repurposes various indigenous designs for all of his runway fashions, with none of that money going back to indigenous communities.

Ultimately, the message here is this-- it isn't the borrowing or appreciation of another culture's art alone that is the problem-- it's doing so either with a) not an understanding of what you're borrowing, potentially being disrespectful in the process; b) doing so for this neo-orientalist fascination with exoticism, when living in a country where these individuals feel the need to drop these customs in order to assimilate; c) developing economic, social, or cultural capital in exchange for this appropriation despite these same benefits rarely being granted to the purveyors of said cultural motifs.


It's complicated. The link shared in OP is complicated. This argument is just another manifestation of a diverse society with power differentials-- that we all ought to strive to eliminate. I'm admittedly not an expert in navigating through this field dissertationally.
 
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Archie Moses said:
One time, he went to a SF Giant game during Native American night.
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I mean, I find this frankly fascinating-- I am so curious to hear how their front office celebrated "Native American Night" at this game. I wonder how many people in the stadium were actually indigenous, and I wonder how they went about celebrating this night for their fans. To me, the very existence of it sounds a lot like the textbook example of cultural appropriation that people would find problematic.
 
dalamon said:
I mean, I find this frankly fascinating-- I am so curious to hear how their front office celebrated "Native American Night" at this game. I wonder how many people in the stadium were actually indigenous, and I wonder how they went about celebrating this night for their fans. To me, the very existence of it sounds a lot like the textbook example of cultural appropriation that people would find problematic.
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If this is true, I find this hilariously dumb as **** on the front office’s part.

“Let’s brainstorm here people! What kind of special games do we want this year?! Let’s get some ideas. Ken, about how you? What do you think?”

“I was thinking about maybe a Native American Night.”

“Brilliant! I love it! Maybe free hatchets to the first 1,000 in attendance too!”
 
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