Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.

[Grandpa Jazz]

EVERY SINGLE TEAM HAD A TOP FIVE PICK

Really ! Well this is reality. The Jazz have a 2nd (Williams) two thirds (Favors and Kanter) two ninths (Hayward and Burke) a 12th (Alec Burks) and a 13th (Jefferson). Of those Williams is near the end of his career and Burke is an untried rookie) leaving five players in the top 13 who have some solid experience yet are not too old. You named 10 players who were top five picks and became big stars of which only some ever won a title. What you didn't mention is that those success stories came from a pool of over 100 top 5 picks. The draft is also called " the Lottery" and there is good reason for this name, as it's very risky. Attempting to lose enough on purpose to achieve a high pick is foolish and i do not believe that the Jazz are attempting to do that at all. I believe "the Tank" is in the minds of the beholder as it was obvious that to rid our roster of those higher paid vets and play our young talent was going to result in a losing season (or two). So believing in the tank only makes sense if you believe that the resulting 1,2 or three pick will make it all worth while. But that would just be a big gamble. We will end up with a top pick and i hope someday that person will end up on a list of top 5 players who became great players. But if you believe that is in any way a certainty, i would like to introduce you to the PCH sweepstakes. I personally want to see our younger players to develop, hope for some help from the draft and pick up another piece or two via trade or FA. What else you gonna do?

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

Reading through this thread and wow.... a lot members have been banned.

 

[darthlarryboy]

Yeah, I re-read that and wondered the same thing. Both Kanter and Favors are PF's. I think you don't decide quite yet. If Gobert pans out, then you keep Kanter. If you get Randle in the draft, then I lean toward Favors.

Anyways, with Favors being locked up, and at the price you got him at, there is a good chance that you build around Kanter, Favors and whatever wing you get in the draft. I would LOVE to keep Hayward...at the right price. If you can have this lineup:

Burke or vet P&R PG
Hayward
Parker
Kanter
Favors

Where Parker is your #1, Kanter #2, Hayward#3, Favors the P&R specialist...wow. That could be a crazy good team. Crazy good.

Agreed. That would be a great offensive team, but what about defensively? Yes, I like my defense. Gobert could pan out defensively.

 

[vj_74]

Yeah, I re-read that and wondered the same thing. Both Kanter and Favors are PF's. I think you don't decide quite yet. If Gobert pans out, then you keep Kanter. If you get Randle in the draft, then I lean toward Favors.

Anyways, with Favors being locked up, and at the price you got him at, there is a good chance that you build around Kanter, Favors and whatever wing you get in the draft. I would LOVE to keep Hayward...at the right price. If you can have this lineup:

Burke or vet P&R PG
Hayward
Parker
Kanter
Favors

Where Parker is your #1, Kanter #2, Hayward#3, Favors the P&R specialist...wow. That could be a crazy good team. Crazy good.

Except that Kanter and Hayward have quite a ways to go to be 2nd and 3rd options on a contending team. Think Wade, Harden, Gasol,Pierce( in their prime),Parker/Ginobli, or even Paul George, Kahwi Leonard types. Thats the level of talent/consistency you need from 2nd/3rd options and thats assuming Parker is really all that good. And after all this, you also need a pretty decent bench which you have not even talked about in your post.

Thats why Iam a little skeptical about all this "stockpile lotto picks" plan.Because, not only do you need to retain your best 3 (all lotto picks) but also have money left to get a couple of impact players off the bench. You still need the Battiers and Poseys and Bowens off the bench to help the Big 3 win it all. Do the Jazz FO have the money/willingness to accomplish this? I feel their only hope is if the layer they draft next year matures reallyfast and is delivering at a high level while still on a rookie contract. So the Jazz will have some money left to get some pieces around him.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Except that Kanter and Hayward have quite a ways to go to be 2nd and 3rd options on a contending team. Think Wade, Harden, Gasol,Pierce( in their prime),Parker/Ginobli, or even Paul George, Kahwi Leonard types. Thats the level of talent/consistency you need from 2nd/3rd options and thats assuming Parker is really all that good. And after all this, you also need a pretty decent bench which you have not even talked about in your post.

Thats why Iam a little skeptical about all this "stockpile lotto picks" plan.Because, not only do you need to retain your best 3 (all lotto picks) but also have money left to get a couple of impact players off the bench. You still need the Battiers and Poseys and Bowens off the bench to help the Big 3 win it all. Do the Jazz FO have the money/willingness to accomplish this? I feel their only hope is if the layer they draft next year matures reallyfast and is delivering at a high level while still on a rookie contract. So the Jazz will have some money left to get some pieces around him.

Pssst! Over here! You can draft role players as well! And you don't usually entice decent free agents at a decent price until you're a contender anyway! Which is the goal!

 

[jazzrule]

I don’t believe tanking is bad for the NBA. It allows teams to improve very quickly as long as they are smart with their draft picks and development of their young players. If I were a general manager in charge of turning around a rebuilding team, I would definitely play young, inexperienced players and hope for a top pick, especially in 2014 or 2015 with the chance to land a franchise-changing player like Andrew Wiggins, Julius Randle, Jabari Parker or Jahlil Okafor among others.
Read more at https://www.hoopsworld.com/pointcounterpoint-is-tanking-bad-for-the-nba#vYE25U2YpuUSSEdv.99

 

[cowhide]

Really ! Well this is reality. The Jazz have a 2nd (Williams) two thirds (Favors and Kanter) two ninths (Hayward and Burke) a 12th (Alec Burks) and a 13th (Jefferson). Of those Williams is near the end of his career and Burke is an untried rookie) leaving five players in the top 13 who have some solid experience yet are not too old. You named 10 players who were top five picks and became big stars of which only some ever won a title. What you didn't mention is that those success stories came from a pool of over 100 top 5 picks. The draft is also called " the Lottery" and there is good reason for this name, as it's very risky. Attempting to lose enough on purpose to achieve a high pick is foolish and i do not believe that the Jazz are attempting to do that at all. I believe "the Tank" is in the minds of the beholder as it was obvious that to rid our roster of those higher paid vets and play our young talent was going to result in a losing season (or two). So believing in the tank only makes sense if you believe that the resulting 1,2 or three pick will make it all worth while. But that would just be a big gamble. We will end up with a top pick and i hope someday that person will end up on a list of top 5 players who became great players. But if you believe that is in any way a certainty, i would like to introduce you to the PCH sweepstakes. I personally want to see our younger players to develop, hope for some help from the draft and pick up another piece or two via trade or FA. What else you gonna do?

The only real certainty in life is that some day you will die. Of course there is the chance that you have the number one pick in a bad draft like this past year. Cleveland got screwed and a team can make a bad choice like Portland (Bowie over Jordan and Oden over Durrant). The same is true in a trade or FA, you can sign a player and he can become an albatross on your roster. The best chance for a small market team to get a great player is through the draft. I think everyone can agree with that so that is why most people are ok with tanking to get a high pick in a draft many consider the best draft potentially in 10 years.

Beside it was time for the young guns to get primetime playing time so the Jazz organization can tweak their roster if need be.

 

[cowhide]

Except that Kanter and Hayward have quite a ways to go to be 2nd and 3rd options on a contending team. Think Wade, Harden, Gasol,Pierce( in their prime),Parker/Ginobli, or even Paul George, Kahwi Leonard types. Thats the level of talent/consistency you need from 2nd/3rd options and thats assuming Parker is really all that good. And after all this, you also need a pretty decent bench which you have not even talked about in your post.

Thats why Iam a little skeptical about all this "stockpile lotto picks" plan.Because, not only do you need to retain your best 3 (all lotto picks) but also have money left to get a couple of impact players off the bench. You still need the Battiers and Poseys and Bowens off the bench to help the Big 3 win it all. Do the Jazz FO have the money/willingness to accomplish this? I feel their only hope is if the layer they draft next year matures reallyfast and is delivering at a high level while still on a rookie contract. So the Jazz will have some money left to get some pieces around him.

The way you spend money is always an issue, regardless if you have to pay your own free agents or bring in free agents.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

The only real certainty in life is that some day you will die. Of course there is the chance that you have the number one pick in a bad draft like this past year. Cleveland got screwed and a team can make a bad choice like Portland (Bowie over Jordan and Oden over Durrant). The same is true in a trade or FA, you can sign a player and he can become an albatross on your roster. The best chance for a small market team to get a great player is through the draft. I think everyone can agree with that so that is why most people are ok with tanking to get a high pick in a draft many consider the best draft potentially in 10 years.

Beside it was time for the young guns to get primetime playing time so the Jazz organization can tweak their roster if need be.

Cowhide, i agree with everything you said. But i see a large segment of Jazz fans that believe in the idea that we just make that one great pick and we win an NBA title! And the chances of that happening are almost nil. Do you really believe any Jazz personnel are trying to lose games? No they are just an inferior team at this point. Rather that is because of coaching, inexperience or lack of talent is all in the eye of the beholder. When they do play well they can't maintain that and end up usually with a really bad quarter and lose. The lessons learned will either be how to correct this or that lesson may be "play for myself, cause this team will never be any good". Losing excessively is never a good thing but something that has to be overcome.

 

[♪alt13]

Cowhide, i agree with everything you said. But i see a large segment of Jazz fans that believe in the idea that we just make that one great pick and we win an NBA title! And the chances of that happening are almost nil. Do you really believe any Jazz personnel are trying to lose games? No they are just an inferior team at this point. Rather that is because of coaching, inexperience or lack of talent is all in the eye of the beholder. When they do play well they can't maintain that and end up usually with a really bad quarter and lose. The lessons learned will either be how to correct this or that lesson may be "play for myself, cause this team will never be any good". Losing excessively is never a good thing but something that has to be overcome.

No!

We believe that

core + early draft pick + FA > core + FA + late draft pick

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

... Of those Williams is near the end of his career...

He is only 27 years old! (going on 40).

 

[Ellipse]

Pssst! Over here! You can draft role players as well! And you don't usually entice decent free agents at a decent price until you're a contender anyway! Which is the goal!

I get what you are saying and I don't disagree but ... how many draft picks have the Jazz spent trying to find a replacement for Horny? Or let's look at from this angle -- how many Jazz-drafted players are still on the team?

 

[green]

Cowhide, i agree with everything you said. But i see a large segment of Jazz fans that believe in the idea that we just make that one great pick and we win an NBA title! And the chances of that happening are almost nil. Do you really believe any Jazz personnel are trying to lose games? No they are just an inferior team at this point. Rather that is because of coaching, inexperience or lack of talent is all in the eye of the beholder. When they do play well they can't maintain that and end up usually with a really bad quarter and lose. The lessons learned will either be how to correct this or that lesson may be "play for myself, cause this team will never be any good". Losing excessively is never a good thing but something that has to be overcome.

Ummm...No. We are smart and realize what the Jazz have set themselves up to do. We realize that the Jazz have very, very good young players on the roster (Favors, Kanter, Gobert, Hayward, Burke, Burks), a couple of solid backup wings on the roster that they could bring back if they want to (Marvin, Rush), and vets that will be gone next year freeing up cap space to get solid role players? And then realizing that with ALL of that, if you could add a future BIG TIME player that you would NEVER get in FA or through a trade, THEN, with a good coach, you can start to work towards a title?

Come on. This isn't about ONE player. Had the Jazz let Deron and Al walk for nothing, and we were this bad with no Favors and Kanter, and paid Millsap 12 per for 4 years and extended Corbin...completely different.

There is a plan in place. Jabari or Wiggins is a PART of that plan. It isn't the whole plan.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Ummm...No. We are smart and realize what the Jazz have set themselves up to do. We realize that the Jazz have very, very good young players on the roster (Favors, Kanter, Gobert, Hayward, Burke, Burks), a couple of solid backup wings on the roster that they could bring back if they want to (Marvin, Rush), and vets that will be gone next year freeing up cap space to get solid role players? And then realizing that with ALL of that, if you could add a future BIG TIME player that you would NEVER get in FA or through a trade, THEN, with a good coach, you can start to work towards a title?

Come on. This isn't about ONE player. Had the Jazz let Deron and Al walk for nothing, and we were this bad with no Favors and Kanter, and paid Millsap 12 per for 4 years and extended Corbin...completely different.

There is a plan in place. Jabari or Wiggins is a PART of that plan. It isn't the whole plan.

Agree. Lindsey was smart enough to stick to the plan and go with %^$#@ back-ups. Yes, he could have gone hard after guys like Foye, Mo, Carroll. But for what? I honestly believe we'll see a Portland-esque turnaround next season. Blazers upgraded one starter and went out and got a bench. They're on track to improve from 33 to 50+ wins. My take on this is Lindsey will go after an impact player as a FA or get one via trade (and by that, I don't mean superstar, just a very solid rotation player). Add that to the what we have already + the draft picks...not bad!