Game Thread Dec 28, 2022 08:00PM MT: Jazz at Warriors

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I didn't say you were bashing him. you were saying he isn't playing like an all star. you were wrong about that since he is playing like an all star. Especially last night. 29 points and 16 rebounds are all star numbers. Thats just a fact.

I would just rather see Markkanen have the production in the second half and 4th quarter specifically. He doesn’t do that. It’s also harder to do it in crunch time. I’m not sure he knows how to do that sometimes. The other night I think he had 23-25 points or something in the first half. He’s got to score more than 3 points in the fourth quarter. He should’ve had a 40 point game yesterday.

 

[Step-Back Hook]

I would just rather see Markkanen have the production in the second half and 4th quarter specifically. He doesn’t do that. It’s also harder to do it in crunch time. I’m not sure he knows how to do that sometimes. The other night I think he had 23-25 points or something in the first half. He’s got to score more than 3 points in the fourth quarter. He should’ve had a 40 point game yesterday.

He is not at #1 level at this point. His usage and touches are not there too. He is just racking up insane shooting splits. He is not great on-ball advance creator in static situations. For that, good teams have sets run to do whatever to get open that calibre of shooter he has been this season.
He has had few great 4ths this season... Learning to "frce the issue" is one of the toughest things and in Chicago Lavine took the 4ths over and with the Cavs lauri was just the 4th option.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would just rather see Markkanen have the production in the second half and 4th quarter specifically. He doesn’t do that. It’s also harder to do it in crunch time. I’m not sure he knows how to do that sometimes. The other night I think he had 23-25 points or something in the first half. He’s got to score more than 3 points in the fourth quarter. He should’ve had a 40 point game yesterday.

I too would like to see him score more at the end of games. Dude is still playing like an all star though anyway.

 

[Agent#00]

I dont know where this "sit in the corner" notion comes from. He drove to the paint for that turnaround fadeaway, had that one play with a spin move on the perimeter and drove in for a layup where I thought he was fouled by Draymond. Also took two threes from above the break... He did have a corner 3 miss as well but that was him rotating to the open area when Vando came out of the corner.

He missed his shots in the 4th. He was hot before he went to ride the pine in the 3rd, but lost his touch. I thought few of his shots were the types he automatically makes. It wasnt his legs.. he was moving smoothly, hustling back to defense etc.

You can say his play is different from 1st half vs 4q. I know this is partly on hardy but in the 4th playing with 4 bench guys he becomes a 3pt shooter. You can also say this happens every game he put up fantastic numbers early then 4th not much. As much as I would like him to demand the ball and takeover it's just not happening. maybe too nice? we compare him to Dirk but Dirk shines in the 4th and pressure situations, not in the previous quarters. now again this could be on hardy but keep in mind coaches put players in the best position to win. so whatever good stuff he see on practice, he will use it come gametime.

 

[HermanG]

You can say his play is different from 1st half vs 4q. I know this is partly on hardy but in the 4th playing with 4 bench guys he becomes a 3pt shooter. You can also say this happens every game he put up fantastic numbers early then 4th not much. As much as I would like him to demand the ball and takeover it's just not happening. maybe too nice? we compare him to Dirk but Dirk shines in the 4th and pressure situations, not in the previous quarters. now again this could be on hardy but keep in mind coaches put players in the best position to win. so whatever good stuff he see on practice, he will use it come gametime.

I'm not sure what game you refer to.. but last game he was all over the field in the 4th. He had 6 shots, only two of which were stationary but 1 of those 2 he rotated to the open corner right before. He was not spotting up he took 1 rebound to a fast layup and dribbled to create the shot in 3 of the 6 attempts. The whole notion of "him sitting in the corner" is easy to dismiss by watching the 4th quarter again and actually focusing on what he does. Him being "invisible" last game had more to do with him missing his shots in the 4th.

Conley and Clarkson both ignored him few times he was active and available, which shouldnt happen if you are an established star.... but herein lies the issue. He is not yet an established star. He is not yet in a position where he has history and evidence to be able to demand the ball. He is only building up the case for himself.

This whole conversation is premature. He is just arriving, hasnt established himself yet.

 

[HermanG]

I would just rather see Markkanen have the production in the second half and 4th quarter specifically. He doesn’t do that. It’s also harder to do it in crunch time. I’m not sure he knows how to do that sometimes. The other night I think he had 23-25 points or something in the first half. He’s got to score more than 3 points in the fourth quarter. He should’ve had a 40 point game yesterday.

The whole bolded section is just dumb. "He doesnt do it" or "doesnt know how to do it". Are you saying he decides who has the ball at the end? He is not the primary ballhandler.. nor should he be at 7 foot. Are you saying he is an established star who should control the locker room in a new team? Our starting guards are 30 and 35 and were here last season.... you think Lauri at 25 coming in is in a position to just "tell them what to do". He isnt there yet... he is just arriving.

Furthermore you are a hater because you are exaggarating things in a negative way, calling him out as the culprit while completely ignoring how our coach wants to run the offense.

Lauri has averaged 13 points in the first and 10 points in the second half with 4.4 in the 4th quarter. Sure, he does score less in the 2nd half... but its not even close to what you imply. Also just within last 4 games he scored 10 points against Detroit and 13 points against SA in the 4th quarter. Watch the games. He is playing active in the 4th.. but since he isnt the primary ball handler he needs someone to give him the rock. Hardy doesnt post him up and he often has a shadow so the pass is not always easy.. and more often in the 2nd half our guards just skip that pass and shoot or drive themselves. They also certainly arent even looking to pass to him all the time and sometimes miss situations where he is open not just for a pass but for a shot/drive..

FGA difference 1st half vs 2nd half
Lauri -1.0 FGA in +0.1 minutes
Conely +0.8 FGA in -1.0 minutes
Clarkson +0.5 FGA in -0.4 minutes

The differences are not huge, but they still go the wrong way. They show our veteran guards are not "feeding Lauri" like you would suggest they should... instead they take slightly more shots themselves and otherwise seem to play by the system (pretty much everyone in the team has equal FGA/minute between first and second half).

 

[HermanG]

Oh and btw.. guess what was different in that Detroit game where he scored 10 points in the 4th. Conley and Clarkson did not play a single minute in the 4th.

The lineup that closed the game for us was Markkanen, Beasley, Rudy Gay, NAW and Vando/Kessler splitting C minutes 50/50. That lineup scored 26 points in 9:21 with +11 BPM... before we put end of the bench guys in for the last 2:39.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

The whole bolded section is just dumb. "He doesnt do it" or "doesnt know how to do it". Are you saying he decides who has the ball at the end? He is not the primary ballhandler.. nor should he be at 7 foot. Are you saying he is an established star who should control the locker room in a new team? Our starting guards are 30 and 35 and were here last season.... you think Lauri at 25 coming in is in a position to just "tell them what to do". He isnt there yet... he is just arriving.

Furthermore you are a hater because you are exaggarating things in a negative way, calling him out as the culprit while completely ignoring how our coach wants to run the offense.

Lauri has averaged 13 points in the first and 10 points in the second half with 4.4 in the 4th quarter. Sure, he does score less in the 2nd half... but its not even close to what you imply. Also just within last 4 games he scored 10 points against Detroit and 13 points against SA in the 4th quarter. Watch the games. He is playing active in the 4th.. but since he isnt the primary ball handler he needs someone to give him the rock. Hardy doesnt post him up and he often has a shadow so the pass is not always easy.. and more often in the 2nd half our guards just skip that pass and shoot or drive themselves. They also certainly arent even looking to pass to him all the time and sometimes miss situations where he is open not just for a pass but for a shot/drive..

FGA difference 1st half vs 2nd half
Lauri -1.0 FGA in +0.1 minutes
Conely +0.8 FGA in -1.0 minutes
Clarkson +0.5 FGA in -0.4 minutes

The differences are not huge, but they still go the wrong way. They show our veteran guards are not "feeding Lauri" like you would suggest they should... instead they take slightly more shots themselves and otherwise seem to play by the system (pretty much everyone in the team has equal FGA/minute between first and second half).

Oh and btw.. guess what was different in that Detroit game where he scored 10 points in the 4th. Conley and Clarkson did not play a single minute in the 4th.

The lineup that closed the game for us was Markkanen, Beasley, Rudy Gay, NAW and Vando/Kessler splitting C minutes 50/50. That lineup scored 26 points in 9:21 with +11 BPM... before we put end of the bench guys in for the last 2:39.

I’m not hating on Markkanen, all I’m doing is laying out where he needs to progress if he wants to be a star with staying power. No one cares if he scores 20 in the first half if he only scores 6-10 in the second half. That’s not how you impact a game on a positive side.

He needs to demand the ball, he’s 7ft tall he is skilled enough yes to get his shot off and a good look at that any time he wants. He does this in the first half of practically every game. He shrinks in the fourth. He usually doesn’t trust himself late in games. Look at Dirk as an example. He’s 7ft and not the primary ball handler, but he demands the ball he gets it and goes to work. All I’m saying is Markkanen needs to progress to that point and have the same confidence in the fourth that he has in the first quarter. I’m not being negative or a hater. I’m stating fact, and I believe he can get there. Maybe I hold players to a higher standard then you. Simply put, Markkanen needs to learn to have the same confidence and that dawg in the 4th that he has in the first half of games. And over the last two weeks I’ve come to the realization that JC may be part of the problem and I’d like to see him traded.

 

[HermanG]

I’m not hating on Markkanen, all I’m doing is laying out where he needs to progress if he wants to be a star with staying power. No one cares if he scores 20 in the first half if he only scores 6-10 in the second half. That’s not how you impact a game on a positive side.

He needs to demand the ball, he’s 7ft tall he is skilled enough yes to get his shot off and a good look at that any time he wants. He does this in the first half of practically every game. He shrinks in the fourth. He usually doesn’t trust himself late in games. Look at Dirk as an example. He’s 7ft and not the primary ball handler, but he demands the ball he gets it and goes to work. All I’m saying is Markkanen needs to progress to that point and have the same confidence in the fourth that he has in the first quarter. I’m not being negative or a hater. I’m stating fact, and I believe he can get there. Maybe I hold players to a higher standard then you. Simply put, Markkanen needs to learn to have the same confidence and that dawg in the 4th that he has in the first half of games. And over the last two weeks I’ve come to the realization that JC may be part of the problem and I’d like to see him traded.

We are not at a big disagreement here. I just dont think you walk into a new locker room and take over, unless you are an established star which he wasnt when he came in. Sexton was valued higher by many in that deal... albeit I always thought Lauri was the better player.

JC is 5 years older and Conley is 10 years older, and both were also here last season. Lauri cant just tell them what to do. Right now its either Hardy or Conley who has to set the hierarchy.. even though I think Lauri has already shown pretty clearly he the best player.

We should see him start to take over the clutch more the further we go.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I’m not hating on Markkanen, all I’m doing is laying out where he needs to progress if he wants to be a star with staying power. No one cares if he scores 20 in the first half if he only scores 6-10 in the second half. That’s not how you impact a game on a positive side.

He needs to demand the ball, he’s 7ft tall he is skilled enough yes to get his shot off and a good look at that any time he wants. He does this in the first half of practically every game. He shrinks in the fourth. He usually doesn’t trust himself late in games. Look at Dirk as an example. He’s 7ft and not the primary ball handler, but he demands the ball he gets it and goes to work. All I’m saying is Markkanen needs to progress to that point and have the same confidence in the fourth that he has in the first quarter. I’m not being negative or a hater. I’m stating fact, and I believe he can get there. Maybe I hold players to a higher standard then you. Simply put, Markkanen needs to learn to have the same confidence and that dawg in the 4th that he has in the first half of games. And over the last two weeks I’ve come to the realization that JC may be part of the problem and I’d like to see him traded.

Shut up Jesus Christ.

The dude is the leader for most improved and you are talking about how he needs to progress?

 

[Scape Goat]

Shut up Jesus Christ.

The dude is the leader for most improved and you are talking about how he needs to progress?

Bulls eye!

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

We are not at a big disagreement here. I just dont think you walk into a new locker room and take over, unless you are an established star which he wasnt when he came in. Sexton was valued higher by many in that deal... albeit I always thought Lauri was the better player.

JC is 5 years older and Conley is 10 years older, and both were also here last season. Lauri cant just tell them what to do. Right now its either Hardy or Conley who has to set the hierarchy.. even though I think Lauri has already shown pretty clearly he the best player.

We should see him start to take over the clutch more the further we go.

Well damn… how many games does he need it’s been damn near half the season, he’s clearly the best player, and if he’s not the leader by now, that’s pause for minor concern. It’s not like he’s come to a team with years of solid chemistry other then an over the hill Conley and a career backup/6th man type. Everyone else is new to the team. I need to see more of a leadership roll on the court damn soon, and he needs that going forward if he wants to get to where he wants to go.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Shut up Jesus Christ.

The dude is the leader for most improved and you are talking about how he needs to progress?

So you’re saying he doesn’t need to improve, and who cares if he’s not the same dangerous player in the fourth quarter as he is in the first quarter? You’re fine with that. I hope Hardy doesn’t treat Markkanen like you do/or would if you were coach.

I just want him to play with the same confidence in the 4th as he does in the first.

 

[Step-Back Hook]

Lauri has to be a bit better on 4th. It is not just about opinions but facts. His shooting from downtown in the 4th is 37% and from 54% from field. Both less than season averages. He takes just under 20% of his total shots in 4th for this season.

That said - in his career he has been shooting his best on 4th. Now he has to learn being the 1st option there where he never has been.
A lot of this is on how we run the team. Lauri has also have had real good 4ths so far. But it would be foolish not to think it takes some more progression from him as well. In this game he WAS semi active imo. Shots just were off. He took several shots and thats how he should be doing from now on. The more he takes them on 4th the more he gets used to taking them under bigger pressure from defense and with more miles under feet. His minutes and role is the most active it has ever been so all of this does not happen right away.

I have been watching most all of his games throughout his career so I do not doubt he cant take even bigger role on 4th as well - when Lavine was inured with the Bulls and several were ot with the Cavs last spring he took igger role - he can do it here too: at this point it should be obvious for the whole team who needs to take most of shots. If the ball does not find him he just needs to ask it more. He has been asking the ball more this month than his first month here so it is progressing.

 

[Jiipee84]

Shut up Jesus Christ.

The dude is the leader for most improved and you are talking about how he needs to progress?

Wrong.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is leading MIP award competition right now but Lauri is the second favorite.
Lets see which one wins that award after the season.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Wrong.
Shai Gilgeous Alexander is leading MIP award competition right now but Lauri is the second favorite.
Lets see which one wins that award after the season.

Shai can suck deez nuts. Lauri has a higher increase in ppg and is one of the best 3pt shooters in the nBa

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So you’re saying he doesn’t need to improve, and who cares if he’s not the same dangerous player in the fourth quarter as he is in the first quarter? You’re fine with that. I hope Hardy doesn’t treat Markkanen like you do/or would if you were coach.

I just want him to play with the same confidence in the 4th as he does in the first.

Just saying the dude is improving at a dramatic pace so being overly nitpicky just feels yucky

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Just saying the dude is improving at a dramatic pace so being overly nitpicky just feels yucky

It’s not nitpicking at all!! It’s the truth I’m Just pointing out what he needs to get to the next level, and never said he couldn’t. You’re just one of those fans that blow your wad when a shortcoming is brought up. Nothing I said was wrong or me being a hater. I never said he was a bad player. Nothing could be further from the truth, but you and every fan that’s calling him a star are not being fair to Markkanen. All I did was point out what he needs to improve to reach that Plateau.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It’s not nitpicking at all!! It’s the truth I’m Just pointing out what he needs to get to the next level, and never said he couldn’t. You’re just one of those fans that blow your wad when a shortcoming is brought up. Nothing I said was wrong or me being a hater. I never said he was a bad player. Nothing could be further from the truth, but you and every fan that’s calling him a star are not being fair to Markkanen. All I did was point out what he needs to improve to reach that Plateau.

I wouldnt say that is me. I'm very critical, but I just dont see the point of being overly critical of Markkanen when he is playing out of his mind while being surrounded by mediocrity.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I wouldnt say that is me. I'm very critical, but I just dont see the point of being overly critical of Markkanen when he is playing out of his mind while being surrounded by mediocrity.

Sometimes you just tip the cap, I mean I’m speechless, what do you come back with when talking to a crazy person, so whatever, your right, Markkanen is already perfect in every way. WTF was I thinking I bow to your greatness. Lol