Donald is about to go through some things...

[str8line]

Yep, dump trump and the hostility goes way way down across the country.

MAGAs say that people like myself and yourself have TDS (trump derangement syndrome) like that is some sort of flex.

Thing is they are right. Many many Americans have TDS. The question I have is why would anyone want to elect a person who has a syndrome named after them that afflicts millions of Americans to be the president? Do they hate America or something?

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

Haha, good point.

 

[Douchebag K]

That's their MO right now, wax hyperbolic until the hyperbolic seems sane and normal, then drive to new heretofore unknown levels of hyperbole. It won't be long until they are actually "swatting" their political enemies with fake phone calls to police, or simply letting their crazed and insane cult members know that their seemingly "peaceful" liberal neighbors are really gathering their forces to take over the country, so they better take them out Ruanda-style before that can happen! Strike first, strike hard, no mercy!

And the really terrifying thing is I do not think we are that far away from scenarios like that actually playing out. It isn't a big step from confronting a jogging black man in your neighborhood with guns to doing the same to the imaginary threat of the liberal socialists running amok!

victory or death lol At least Bannon won't have to worry about getting raped in prison Surely nobody even a deranged criminal could get it up for that ugly fool.

I appreciate your balanced perspective anyway mate. Personally i would classify myself as somewhere centrist probably slightly right leaning however most of my friends are quite left and i respect and understand and have leanings toward a lot of their views. It's entirely possible to think left on one issue and right on another. Such a shame it's just all so binary so often, I just can't be bothered with it here mostly because within a post one of the extremists comes in and tells you you're trash. The political discourse is you're either all one thing or another. It's getting that way here too.

 

[str8line]

That's their MO right now, wax hyperbolic until the hyperbolic seems sane and normal, then drive to new heretofore unknown levels of hyperbole. It won't be long until they are actually "swatting" their political enemies with fake phone calls to police, or simply letting their crazed and insane cult members know that their seemingly "peaceful" liberal neighbors are really gathering their forces to take over the country, so they better take them out Ruanda-style before that can happen! Strike first, strike hard, no mercy!

And the really terrifying thing is I do not think we are that far away from scenarios like that actually playing out. It isn't a big step from confronting a jogging black man in your neighborhood with guns to doing the same to the imaginary threat of the liberal socialists running amok!

This is a great post, Log.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

It's not being hostile to anyone "politically right of center", it's being hostile to Trumptards. If you are a Trumptard you deserve to get called out. It's not political, it's personal.

To you and everyone left in this forum, everyone politically right of center is a Trumptard, and the personal attacks on those because of their politics are why everyone politically right of center has left.

Those who might vote for Trump in the upcoming election aren't a cult. They aren't even uniform in why their voting in that direction. If you don't like him then don't vote for him, but where you cross the line and why this forum only has your point of view is that you demand that everyone who doesn't echo your same view needs to be called out, shouted down, demeaned and assigned the worst of whatever you think you are not. To you, there are no sane conservatives. There is only your point of view and Trumptards, and I give you credit because you are actually more moderate than most here. Most left in this forum are more closed minded than you are.

It is crazy town to read how many claim they are open to debate but I know from experience that most are only open so long as it is with someone who thinks exactly what they think. The only person in this forum who has wanted to actually talk ideas with someone he does not agree with is silesian. I watched Bucknutz try really hard to have some sort of dialog with The Thriller, and offer up some ground rules about staying way from his usual MAGA Cult generalizations, and The Thriller was completely unable to do it, claimed himself to be an amazing debater of ideas, and then set to writing a bunch of personal attacks. Well done Thriller.

 

[Rubashov]

I actually hate the fact that the most active place I can discuss anything politics-related, here on Jazz Fanz, is so lacking in conservative representation and can have a tendency to become a liberal echo chamber at times. I wish there were actually sane conservatives who can recognize the Trump cult for what it really is and provide a desperately needed counterpoint both to the endlessly self-congratulatory and self-righteous leftists and the endlessly insane MAGA cultists. Where the **** are all the moderate conservatives that are so desperately needed right now in our political landscape. For this reason I really appreciate @Bucknutz and @Douchebag K for giving us this needed viewpoint. But they cannot carry the banner alone, especially when they are so soundly undermined by the other "conservative" voices here, which are 99% just trolls. (see above for a great example of that)

I have said it many times, and now it is coming to fruition, but the fact that we latch onto this 2-party system is what will destroy our country. You cannot have the populace split into 2 governing factions and only 2 without the inevitable devolution of the political system into just what we have now, a focus entirely on winning at all costs and no focus at all on the constituencies beyond what hot-button topic will get the votes to win again. We need a viable 3rd party or we will watch our once-powerful and fantastic country crumble in the same vein as Rome.

The Tea party did for moderate conservatives, same thing has happened to the Liberal Party here (they're conservative not liberal as Americans would use the term) what's happened here tho is as the Liberal party has gone further and further to the right, independent local candidates have emerged and replaced them in urban electorates, similar to the liberals of old, financially conservative, somewhat socially progress and anti organised labor. This has basically made the liberal party unelectable.

 

[Rubashov]

You sure?

What is Data vs. What is Information? | Bloomfire

What’s the difference between data vs. information, and how can they both be leveraged effectively?

bloomfire.com

You've provided neither data nor information to back your claim



Y'all need to read a little early American history. I'll take Thomas Jefferson's opinion over yours anyday.

Jeffersonian democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For some reason the MAGA right wing extremists find this semantic issue to an emotional and vitally important distinction.
Why?

The Real Reason Why Republicans Keep Saying “We’re a Republic, Not a Democracy”

The author of Democracy May Not Exist on a sinister new talking point.

slate.com

"I love living in Phoenix, it is my favorite city in Arizona"
.....it is not in Arizona, it is in the USA
"It is in Arizona, not in the USA"
....it can't be in both?
"CORRECT"

Some seriously bad logic by Al.
Study some Venn Diagrams



You are describing a representative democracy. Yet saying we are not a democracy at all. ponderous.



Of course we are a republic, no one is debating that point. You need to prove that we are also not a democracy to win the debate. You're not doing very well so far.

"She is a red head"
...Correct
"Therefore she does not wear glasses"
...But some people with red hair also wear glasses
"BUT SHE HAS RED HAIR!"

This is how insance MAGA sounds to sane people.

That article from Slate.com was excellent. thanks

 

[silesian]

Thomas Jefferson never said the United States was a democracy.

Yes he did. Quotes


“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

 

[Douchebag K]

The Tea party did for moderate conservatives, same thing has happened to the Liberal Party here (they're conservative not liberal as Americans would use the term) what's happened here tho is as the Liberal party has gone further and further to the right, independent local candidates have emerged and replaced them in urban electorates, similar to the liberals of old, financially conservative, somewhat socially progress and anti organised labor. This has basically made the liberal party unelectable.

it's weird isn't it. I voted independent last couple of elections. The interesting thing atm is whether the ALP and Libs are going to attempt to squeeze the Greens and Teals etc out by preferencing away from them

 

[The Thriller]

Trumpers are always victims. Never instigators. Always reacting. Always victims. They can never be judged for their own behavior which is always to the response of others. They’re never responsible for anything they do.

Yawn

Meanwhile, trumpers are attacking fellow republicans as RINOs. Like utah right now. You can’t blame liberals for this. We have zero political power in this state. So when trumper Repubs call Gov Cox a RINO and claim he’s rigged the election, you have no one but yourself to blame. Democrats didn’t do any of this. Liberals didn’t boo Cox at the convention. We didn’t attack Mitt Romney so much that he’s retiring. We don’t primary Liz Cheney out of office. You did that. Hey Repubs, you built that!

 

[Al-O-Meter]

They can never be judged for their own behavior which is always to the response of others.

You seriously think there are no conservatives in this forum because of the way I treat them?

The expressed thought was why there are no sane conservative here in this forum, and you go off about mean things someone vague, somewhere in the ether that wasn't here, said about the governor? Get a grip. Bucknutz tried to talk across the aisle with you and you answered Logs / Fish's / str8line's question.

After watching you in action, I do not believe for even five seconds that you had to be good at debating ideas to get where you are professionally. You have demonstrated zero ability, relying almost entirely on the thoughts of other people smarter than yourself to which you then add some of your very best "is this the world we want to live in?" or strawman exclamation with every other letter capitalized.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Yes he did. Quotes

No he didn't. Both of your cited quotes are fake and repeating the second quote doesn't make it less fake.

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."

The end of democracy...(Spurious Quotation)

www.monticello.org

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

The democracy will cease to exist... (Spurious Quotation)

www.monticello.org

Thomas Jefferson wasn't an idiot who didn't know the difference between a republic and a democracy.

 

[The Thriller]

Imagine the media outrage if AOC called for “ethnic cleansing” white conservatives.


View: https://x.com/chiproytx/status/1804145532920578301?s=46

 

[str8line]

To you and everyone left in this forum, everyone politically right of center is a Trumptard, and the personal attacks on those because of their politics are why everyone politically right of center has left.

Those who might vote for Trump in the upcoming election aren't a cult. They aren't even uniform in why their voting in that direction. If you don't like him then don't vote for him, but where you cross the line and why this forum only has your point of view is that you demand that everyone who doesn't echo your same view needs to be called out, shouted down, demeaned and assigned the worst of whatever you think you are not. To you, there are no sane conservatives. There is only your point of view and Trumptards, and I give you credit because you are actually more moderate than most here. Most left in this forum are more closed minded than you are.

It is crazy town to read how many claim they are open to debate but I know from experience that most are only open so long as it is with someone who thinks exactly what they think. The only person in this forum who has wanted to actually talk ideas with someone he does not agree with is silesian. I watched Bucknutz try really hard to have some sort of dialog with The Thriller, and offer up some ground rules about staying way from his usual MAGA Cult generalizations, and The Thriller was completely unable to do it, claimed himself to be an amazing debater of ideas, and then set to writing a bunch of personal attacks. Well done Thriller.

No, I don't dislike people who are right of center, only those who support The Rapist. Germans had a lot of their own reasons for supporting Hitler just like Trumptards have their own reasons for supporting The Rapist. Do you think those Germans who were so high on Hitler in 1937 were happy with their judgment by 1946?

 

[Rubashov]

it's weird isn't it. I voted independent last couple of elections. The interesting thing atm is whether the ALP and Libs are going to attempt to squeeze the Greens and Teals etc out by preferencing away from them

Its actually happened for the same reasons just 20 years apart. If you look at what happened with the Greens, founded in the early 90s, for those of us on the left it was initially regarded as a middle class left movement more concerned about trees and wearing knitted jumpers than living standards. However it benefited significantly from historical events. The end of the Soviet Union did not spell the end of the Communist Party of Australia, the CPA through the 90s was still very organised and influential within the labor movement, communists controlled the maritime union, construction union and miners union. They also functioned as a think tank for the Labor party. However the fall of the soviet union did begin a sort of end of relevance and prestige, a gradual drift away from the party developed, even though the MUA 'won' the waterfront dispute of 1998 the union was weakened and the party was as well. Intellectually there was a new fashion toward decentralised progressive ideas found in what basically amounts to neo-anarchism. With all this in mind well into the 2000s the Communist Parties weekly paper the Guardian was fabulously written containing wonderfully researched articles from intellectuals. I last read it about 10 years ago and it read like something written by an undergraduate on meth, spelling and grammar problems in the ****ing Guardian!!! Its was still relevant within the trade union movement as well, these days the only unions which really still have any CPA legacy would be the MUA.

Anyway the gradual death of the CPA left a bunch of dedicated left wing activists in search of a home. Labor under Beazley, through intransigence and what many of the left considered moral cowardice drifted to the right as Howard's culture war reshaped the country into a meaner, more selfish place place. For people on the hard left the ALP was no longer what it was and they did what to many had been inconceivable, they joined the Greens. As Labor continued under Beazley to not only stand for nothing but also fail to protect their established constituency, the left of the party switched to the greens. The result is that in a 20 year period the vote of the Greens has gone from 5 percent to 15 percent of the primary vote. They also marginally benefited from the demise of the Democrats as a political party but i think these forces are more relevant in the rise of the Teals than they are with the Greens.

In terms of the ALP and the Greens I think labor has learned to live with them, they're not a massive threat in the lower house, the Greens will likely keep the City of Melbourne (I know from personal experience that Adam Bandt is a fantastic local member) and they may take Wills off the ALP in the next 10 to 15 years maybe. Labour will be in for a hard time to hold onto the electorate of Sydney after Tanya Plilbersek leaves parliament but all in all they can live with it. I would expect labor to do their best to support the Teals, the Liberals cannot form government without reclaiming those electorates.

In terms of the Teals I think they're for the most part former Liberal party people who find their parties movement to the far right deeply disturbing, I think they've also benefitted from Democrat voters looking for a home in those electorates too. What most people don't realise is that the rank and file of the Liberal party is significantly further to the right than the parliamentary party. This is a distinct legacy of Howard, Howard liked to present himself as an apostle of Menzies continuing the legacy of the old mans party. In reality he had a lot more in common with Margaret Thatcher and Barry Goldwater than Menzies. The Liberals faced a massive challenge leading into the 2001 election, the Liberals had been smashed by the ALP in state elections across the country, their problem was the rise of One Nation on the right, One Nations primary vote and preference flows cost them massively in WA and Queensland, the Libs cannot form government without WA and Queensland. Howard's solution was to usurp One Nation on the right to adopt or dog whistle their racist idea of Australia. Howard was the first to adopted wedge politics which was still a relatively new phenomenon and his wedge of choice was racism and a subtle embrace of white Australia. Let us remember the Tampa and the children overboard scandals, those two moments off Christmas Island shaped the political landscape for the next 20 years. (**** me, what a **** Howard was) Politically this was effective and possibly necessary for a time it covered them to the right but it has lost them the centre in the long term.

The consequence for the Liberals has been that their party membership has drifted away from tradition conservatives to a party with significant membership and influence from white supremacists and neo-Nazis, by no means are they a majority but they are organised and influential, its a similar to the influence the communist had within the ALP but for wholly different reasons and desired outcomes. Moderates are now a minority within the LNP and I think this is a real problem for them. At present i dont see them having any chance of reclaiming the Teal vote. They seem to be pursuing a strategy of supporting their rural base in WA, NSW and Queensland and targeting outer suburban electorates in the major capitals outside of Victoria. Politically the LNP is basically dead in Victoria. they have 10 of 40 seats in the state and if the state ALP government wasn't so on the nose at the moment that position would likely deteriorate.

The LNP only real strategy is continue down the path they are on, I don't think they have the capacity to right their own ship due to the internal working of the party. Dutton's current madness about nuclear energy is another example of how insane they are, its the most expensive and time consuming solution to the problem which is what his financiers want, delay action on climate change as long as possible to extend the life span of and value from coal. its so transparent its hilarious but people will buy it.

 

[The Thriller]

I’m pretty busy with some work things and with enjoying the family this summer. Can someone tell me more about this? Did anyone watch this? WTF? I thought his boats, batteries, and shocks thing was an incoherent mess. Now immigrants forced to fight in UFC? What the actual ****?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/22/trump-ufc-migrant-league-00164570

Former President Donald Trump suggested in two speeches Saturday that migrants coming to the U.S. should have their own fighting league, remarking that they’re “nasty, mean” and “tough people” who could beat the country’s top fighters.

Speaking first to a crowd of conservative Christians at a Faith & Freedom Coalition gathering in Washington, D.C., Trump said he shared the idea with Dana White, president of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

“I said, ‘Dana I have an idea. Why don’t you set up a migrant league of fighters and have your regular league fighters,” Trump said, “and then you have the champion of your league — these are the greatest fighters in the world — fight the champion of the migrants.’” The suggestion drew laughter and applause from the crowd, a response that continued as he spoke more about the concept.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Do you think those Germans who were so high on Hitler in 1937 were happy with their judgment by 1946?

Undoubtedly some were and some were not. That is how people are. More to the point, I don't think it is correct to even try to put all people in the same box to condemn then all. I believe it can even be dangerous to do so. Many historians believe Hitler's rise to power was brought about by the collective punitive measures the Allies inflicted on Germany at the conclusion of WWI. That isn't the same as saying Germany was good or right in WWI, only that vindictive treatment, even if you think it fully justified, can have really awful consequences.

 

[Douchebag K]

Its actually happened for the same reasons just 20 years apart. If you look at what happened with the Greens, founded in the early 90s, for those of us on the left it was initially regarded as a middle class left movement more concerned about trees and wearing knitted jumpers than living standards. However it benefited significantly from historical events. The end of the Soviet Union did not spell the end of the Communist Party of Australia, the CPA through the 90s was still very organised and influential within the labor movement, communists controlled the maritime union, construction union and miners union. They also functioned as a think tank for the Labor party. However the fall of the soviet union did begin a sort of end of relevance and prestige, a gradual drift away from the party developed, even though the MUA 'won' the waterfront dispute of 1998 the union was weakened and the party was as well. Intellectually there was a new fashion toward decentralised progressive ideas found in what basically amounts to neo-anarchism. With all this in mind well into the 2000s the Communist Parties weekly paper the Guardian was fabulously written containing wonderfully researched articles from intellectuals. I last read it about 10 years ago and it read like something written by an undergraduate on meth, spelling and grammar problems in the ****ing Guardian!!! Its was still relevant within the trade union movement as well, these days the only unions which really still have any CPA legacy would be the MUA.

Anyway the gradual death of the CPA left a bunch of dedicated left wing activists in search of a home. Labor under Beazley, through intransigence and what many of the left considered moral cowardice drifted to the right as Howard's culture war reshaped the country into a meaner, more selfish place place. For people on the hard left the ALP was no longer what it was and they did what to many had been inconceivable, they joined the Greens. As Labor continued under Beazley to not only stand for nothing but also fail to protect their established constituency, the left of the party switched to the greens. The result is that in a 20 year period the vote of the Greens has gone from 5 percent to 15 percent of the primary vote. They also marginally benefited from the demise of the Democrats as a political party but i think these forces are more relevant in the rise of the Teals than they are with the Greens.

In terms of the ALP and the Greens I think labor has learned to live with them, they're not a massive threat in the lower house, the Greens will likely keep the City of Melbourne (I know from personal experience that Adam Bandt is a fantastic local member) and they may take Wills off the ALP in the next 10 to 15 years maybe. Labour will be in for a hard time to hold onto the electorate of Sydney after Tanya Plilbersek leaves parliament but all in all they can live with it. I would expect labor to do their best to support the Teals, the Liberals cannot form government without reclaiming those electorates.

In terms of the Teals I think they're for the most part former Liberal party people who find their parties movement to the far right deeply disturbing, I think they've also benefitted from Democrat voters looking for a home in those electorates too. What most people don't realise is that the rank and file of the Liberal party is significantly further to the right than the parliamentary party. This is a distinct legacy of Howard, Howard liked to present himself as an apostle of Menzies continuing the legacy of the old mans party. In reality he had a lot more in common with Margaret Thatcher and Barry Goldwater than Menzies. The Liberals faced a massive challenge leading into the 2001 election, the Liberals had been smashed by the ALP in state elections across the country, their problem was the rise of One Nation on the right, One Nations primary vote and preference flows cost them massively in WA and Queensland, the Libs cannot form government without WA and Queensland. Howard's solution was to usurp One Nation on the right to adopt or dog whistle their racist idea of Australia. Howard was the first to adopted wedge politics which was still a relatively new phenomenon and his wedge of choice was racism and a subtle embrace of white Australia. Let us remember the Tampa and the children overboard scandals, those two moments off Christmas Island shaped the political landscape for the next 20 years. (**** me, what a **** Howard was) Politically this was effective and possibly necessary for a time it covered them to the right but it has lost them the centre in the long term.

The consequence for the Liberals has been that their party membership has drifted away from tradition conservatives to a party with significant membership and influence from white supremacists and neo-Nazis, by no means are they a majority but they are organised and influential, its a similar to the influence the communist had within the ALP but for wholly different reasons and desired outcomes. Moderates are now a minority within the LNP and I think this is a real problem for them. At present i dont see them having any chance of reclaiming the Teal vote. They seem to be pursuing a strategy of supporting their rural base in WA, NSW and Queensland and targeting outer suburban electorates in the major capitals outside of Victoria. Politically the LNP is basically dead in Victoria. they have 10 of 40 seats in the state and if the state ALP government wasn't so on the nose at the moment that position would likely deteriorate.

The LNP only real strategy is continue down the path they are on, I don't think they have the capacity to right their own ship due to the internal working of the party. Dutton's current madness about nuclear energy is another example of how insane they are, its the most expensive and time consuming solution to the problem which is what his financiers want, delay action on climate change as long as possible to extend the life span of and value from coal. its so transparent its hilarious but people will buy it.

good summary dude. Yeah the sudden "ok lets do nuclear" after all this time is so transparent. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, he's obviously been given internal polling that this may hit a mark with people disgruntled with the cost of living atm.

 

[Rubashov]

good summary dude. Yeah the sudden "ok lets do nuclear" after all this time is so transparent. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, he's obviously been given internal polling that this may hit a mark with people disgruntled with the cost of living atm.

Thing is its four times the cost of renewables and storage! They're claiming its gonna cost 600 billion, I'd be shocked if its not two or three times that if its ever delivered and I hope its not. Them trying to keep climate change and support coal as an issue for them for the last 15 years is why energy is so expensive in the first place, their BS has destabilised the market and prevented investment.

I believe the last reactor built in an OECD nation was 160 billion and that was in the UK where labor price are 1 third of ours.

 

[fishonjazz]

I’m pretty busy with some work things and with enjoying the family this summer. Can someone tell me more about this? Did anyone watch this? WTF? I thought his boats, batteries, and shocks thing was an incoherent mess. Now immigrants forced to fight in UFC? What the actual ****?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/22/trump-ufc-migrant-league-00164570

Former President Donald Trump suggested in two speeches Saturday that migrants coming to the U.S. should have their own fighting league, remarking that they’re “nasty, mean” and “tough people” who could beat the country’s top fighters.

Speaking first to a crowd of conservative Christians at a Faith & Freedom Coalition gathering in Washington, D.C., Trump said he shared the idea with Dana White, president of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

“I said, ‘Dana I have an idea. Why don’t you set up a migrant league of fighters and have your regular league fighters,” Trump said, “and then you have the champion of your league — these are the greatest fighters in the world — fight the champion of the migrants.’” The suggestion drew laughter and applause from the crowd, a response that continued as he spoke more about the concept.

So stupid.


Sent from my OPD2203 using Tapatalk

 

[Red]

Time to reflect on his luxurious hair…..


View: https://x.com/ArbiterofCool/status/1804670607755297158