Donald Trump
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you could still just go Rand. . . .
Red
Well-Known Member
Joe described it well. Here's a little more. As Joe pointed out, Hitler is the best example. Ideally, a demagogue is highly skilled at oratory. I think it's obvious Trump fails on that score. He is not a gifted orator. But, a gifted orator who can affect the hearts of his audience has a powerful gift. Take that gift, and use it to appeal to the baser instincts in one's audience, and you have someone who is able to effectively appeal to fear, anger, hatred, and in general, the baser instincts. You won't find a effective demagogue appealing to the noble nature of man. Demagogues give voice to the fears and anxieties that may be at a heightened level in a time of social/ cultural change. Unfortunately, the power of an effective demagogue is that his audience fail to see their baser instincts are being manipulated. It really is the ultimate in cynical approaches. Because the demagogue is effectively saying "I know I can take advantage of your fears and wrap you around my finger". Truly, that is not a very respectful attitude toward the people you are trying to work up and get on your side. It's very cynical when it's aim is to appeal to the baser instincts in one's audience.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
fishonjazz
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Red
Well-Known Member
Well, just wanted to throw in this demagogue check list as applied to Trump:
https://newrepublic.com/article/128550/trump-emphasizes-emotion-facts
BTW, in 2013, Trump stated "nobody remembers who comes in second." Last night he "was proud" to come in second.
Basically, an orator is just a public speaker. But one who is skilled in the kind of rhetoric(you're not going to ask what rhetoric is, are you, lol?) that moves people emotionally. It's the difference between someone who delivers a factual, but otherwise dull, speech and somebody who skillfully pulls at the heart strings when he/she speaks. A gifted orator delivers speeches that are uplifting to his audience, move the audience to tears if that is what is called for; move the audience to rousing cheers if that is what is called for. A gifted orator should speak with eloquence. He/she has to know how to speak in a manner that deeply moves his/her audience. So, combine great oratory with a demagougue penchant for appealing to the baser instincts in people, and you pretty much have the making of someone with a great power. Because the power to deeply move people with words is a great power indeed. It can be used for good. It can be used for evil.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Did you know that Bill Clinton got 2% in Iowa in his first presidential campaign. In other words, you're jumping the gun by a lot. I saw an interview with Kasich the other day that really impressed me. I hadn't really noticed him before except that he seemed kind of lost. After seeing him lay out his objectives I don't think he's done, no matter what percentage he finishes with in the first few states.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Skilled at blabbering.
Red
Well-Known Member
None of Obama's talking points led to minorities being harassed or beaten by his followers. But, in general, few if any politicians are actually above giving his/her listeners what they want to hear, if they think it will garner votes. But, I don't believe any of Obama's speeches are aimed at increasing the intolerance of groups of Americans toward other Americans. Trump, on the other hand, is very good at directing anger at "outsiders". He is very good at seeking out scapegoats for America's ills. And that is absolutely classic demagoguery. Find a group that will serve as a scapegoat, as a group upon which people can focus their anger. And then get people worked up about it. Trump's speeches emphasize intolerance. He claims he wants to make America great again. By increasing intolerance in America? By increasing bigotry in America? Because that is what he is doing. Appealing to all the people upset and fearful of the cultural and social change occurring in early 21st century America. He is sharp enough to know he cam marshal that anger, bigotry, intolerance, fear, etc behind his candidacy. And by doing so, he is helping to poison the body politic. Instead of hanging on his every outrageous statement, the media, who should be society's watchdog, should be spending more time educating the public in the techniques Trump is using to ratchet up the anger, hatred, fear, and bigotry present in a segment of the population.
Any politician is capable of manipulating voters. What Trump is doing is poisoning the climate entirely.
So, I say to you. Did any of Obama's campaign speeches in 2008 lead to minorities being beaten by Obama's supporters? I do not recall any effort on Obama's part to increase hatred in the hearts of his followers toward other Americans. I recall no such thing. Trump aims to increase anger. Trump aims to increase hatred and direct hatred. These are positive developments in our body politic? I fail to see how increasing anger and bigotry and hatred is a good development.
I say to you: why would a demagogue appealing to good basic instincts like hope have to lead to that? This wasn't an attack on Obama. I can just see how someone could make that argument.
Relax.
Demagouge: someone who becomes a leader largely because of skills as a speaker or who appeals to emotions and prejudices
Vocabulary.com.
All I'm saying is the were both intentionally appealing to a base emotion with no real message. Obama with Hope and Trump with fear. That is where the comparison ends for the two.
Relax.
Demagouge: someone who becomes a leader largely because of skills as a speaker or who appeals to emotions and prejudices
Vocabulary.com.
All I'm saying is the were both intentionally appealing to a base emotion with no real message. Obama with Hope and Trump with fear. That is where the comparison ends for the two.
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Red
Well-Known Member
The Rhetorical Brilliance of Trump as Demagogue:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-us/the-rhetorical-brilliance_b_8792452.html
Demagogue is a loaded term, and I'm eager to use it where The Donald is concerned, because what he is doing concerns me a great deal. He may not win the nomination. And if he does, he may not win the office of POTUS. But, we can be sure that all the anger and bigotry he appeals to will still be there if he does not win. And, in all likelihood, it will be worse because he ran, and chose as his strategy to turn American against American.
Maybe this article is more balanced then I can be, given my extreme aversion to his talking points:
https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...k-about-when-we-talk-about-demagogues/419514/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-us/the-rhetorical-brilliance_b_8792452.html
Demagogue is a loaded term, and I'm eager to use it where The Donald is concerned, because what he is doing concerns me a great deal. He may not win the nomination. And if he does, he may not win the office of POTUS. But, we can be sure that all the anger and bigotry he appeals to will still be there if he does not win. And, in all likelihood, it will be worse because he ran, and chose as his strategy to turn American against American.
Maybe this article is more balanced then I can be, given my extreme aversion to his talking points:
https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...k-about-when-we-talk-about-demagogues/419514/
candrew
Well-Known Member
He's done.
A couple of key differences.
Kasich is in a different party at a different time where the loudest most outrageous voices get center stage. It was nothing like that in 1992 - in fact it's almost the exact opposite. In 1988/92 the republicans had one party looney (Pat Buchanan, whom by comparison today seems mainstream) that got any actual attention from the media. Eventually, at some point, the expectation is the calmer voices will prevail - but if that actually happens it won't be Kasich.
Love him or hate him, Bill Clinton was a rock star in 1992. And his opponents were the painfully boring Paul Tsongas and Governor Moonbeam. Kasich has to jump over a half dozen people just to become relevant.
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Red
Well-Known Member
Well, I did not actually interpret it as an "attack" on Obama, but yes, I will say a good, meaning effective, politician gives people what he thinks they want to hear in order to gain their support and vote. They do things like make promises, followed by, failure to fulfill the promises. There is a cynicism built into a system that depends on marketing strategies. A phoniness that permeates our elections, and I think it's due in part to the fact that political campaigns are marketing campaigns. And marketing is laden with lots and lots of pure BS.
Trump apparently had been planning this for awhile:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/02/how-donald-trump-did-it-213581?o=0
"What they heard as they ate deli sandwiches around Donald Trump’s hulking wooden conference table sounded like the businessman’s typical bravado. These 25 New York political operatives had come to ask him to run for governor. But Trump had another plan—a very specific plan—to run for president.
“You guys are going to be very helpful when I do the big thing,” he said, according to people who were in the room that day.
To the GOP county chairs and assemblymen there in Trump Tower’s glass-enclosed conference room overlooking Fifth Avenue and Central Park, Trump’s aspirations seemed far-fetched and the plan itself sounded downright implausible.
“He said, ‘I’m going to walk away with it and win it outright,’” a long-time New York political consultant recalled. “Trump told us, ‘I’m going to get in and all the polls are going to go crazy. I’m going to suck all the oxygen out of the room. I know how to work the media in a way that they will never take the lights off of me.’”
This gathering of New York’s political class was not held on the eve of Trump’s announcement. It was much earlier than that – 25 months ago, in the weeks before Christmas of 2013, a period well before most Americans and even many politicians were thinking about the 2016 presidential contest. Well before Trump would come to utterly dominate the GOP race from the very moment he declared himself a candidate.
In this meeting, Trump showed his cards, laying out the route he would take to tonight’s Iowa caucuses."
Red
Well-Known Member
Got to thinking a little more here, sometimes a dangerous thing where I'm concerned, lol, but I think where a disconnect in understanding you may have occurred is the fact that I am not accustomed to thinking of demagoguery being used to raise hope in a people, or make a people feel good about themselves and the direction of their nation. I'm not accustomed to seeing the techniques of the demagogue in service to what we may think of as the "nobler virtues" of man. Instead I see it as being used to appeal to our so called "baser instincts." Did not see it as an attack on Obama, but simply confused that demagoguery could be applied to politicians attempting to inspire, instill hope, etc.
Jamezz
Well-Known Member
Well, Rand Paul officially drops from the race after being 5th in the Iowa caucus, the most Constitutional candidate there was in the race. At this point I might as well just go for Trump, if things are going to **** anyway we might as well speed things up.
Now that the establishment media doesn't have to worry about the anti-establishment candidate they can happily move on with the **** show in a peaceful manner.
Now that the establishment media doesn't have to worry about the anti-establishment candidate they can happily move on with the **** show in a peaceful manner.
Huckabee, Santorum and Paul dropped out.
Helps Cruz but not Rubio.
Rubio needed Bush, Christie, Fiorina and Kasich to drop out. I expect 2-3 of those to drop out after N.H.
Jamezz
Well-Known Member
If I could chose make it Bush, Christie and Fiorina, can't stand any of them.
White Nationalists back Trump!
Congrats on the endorsement Donald!
https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists-new-hampshire/index.html
The white supremacist group is robo-calling on behalf of our favorite candidate. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
In all honesty, this seems like a really awesome move to hurt Trump. I have no idea who's behind it, but I'd like to shake their hand...unless they are actually white supremacists, in which case I'd suggest they just hang with The Donald until his joke of a campaign is over.
Congrats on the endorsement Donald!
https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists-new-hampshire/index.html
The white supremacist group is robo-calling on behalf of our favorite candidate. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
In all honesty, this seems like a really awesome move to hurt Trump. I have no idea who's behind it, but I'd like to shake their hand...unless they are actually white supremacists, in which case I'd suggest they just hang with The Donald until his joke of a campaign is over.
addictionary
Well-Known Member
Hill-Dog looks darn old.
I think this story should be taken at face value. I think it is actually white supremacists. They have come out in favor of him a couple months ago as well.