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Donovan Mitchell With and Without Gobert

jope

jope

Well-Known Member
Let me preface this post with the ultimate disclaimer that I in no way, shape, or form feel that Rudy is the problem. In fact there's problems with Rudy, and there's problems without Rudy. And we actually win about at the same rate with him, and without him. I had just noticed that it feels like the game plan shifted a lot when Gobert returned this second time, and DM has had a harder time getting good shots, especially in the early game (which possibly leads to him pressing later on, making poorer shots, and so on). It got me thinking whether or not DM struggled before with Rudy playing, and it did seem to be the case.

I complied the data of DM in games which Rudy sat, and compared them to games which rudy did play. This is not an advanced breakdown by any means -- I simply wanted to know if my eyes deceived, that DM seemingly struggled with the Rudy centric offensive scheme so far this season. Is it Donovan not properly adjusting? Is the change in tactic leading to less touches? Is the paint just too clogged? Attached below are the two spreadsheets. I submit this data to the forum for topic, for boredom, for discussion. I am in no way blaming Rudy for DM's struggles, though something could be said for the team's approach to handling him offensively and his pairing with other players on the roster.

** TL/DR **
DM averaged 16pts/3reb/3asst/3to on 37%/28% shooting in the 22 games Gobert played in
DM averaged 22pts/4reb/3.5asst/2.5to on 48%/33% shooting in the 24 games Gobert did not play in
The question is why?

dm_with_gobert_zpsdtlkacdp.png


dm_without_gobert_zpsmerliqwb.png
 
A large chunk of that is the fact that he played with Gobert to start the season when Mitchell was still struggling and had not got going.

Then since Gobert came back Mitchell has been worn down.

But some of it is playing with 3 non shooters around Mitchell and the 4th shooter Ingles passing up open shots left and right when he doesn't make a couple.
 
It's pretty clear that it is Rubio/Favors/Gobert spacing issues. I don't think it's all that, but that is a pretty big part of it. Teams have also started to guard Donovan much much more aggressively. Also he isn't making 3 pointers at the same rate as he was earlier in the season. I also think that just the general team atmosphere has seemed a little bit down since the losing started happening and all the trade speculation began.
 
For one, I think that the shooting issues Rubio causes are more magnified with Gobert instead of Favors. I think everyone would agree that Favors is the superior offensive player.

I’m still frustrated that the Jazz won’t even seem to entertain the idea of that Gobert/Favors lineup without Rubio in there.
 
When you add Gobert (with Rubio and Favors), you remove a 3pts shooter. The opposing team has one more player in the paint. It's more complicate for the driving layups.
 
NAOS said:
in b4 rash of Rubio-Favor-Gobert comments
Click to expand...

It's true, but it's not like there isn't validity to the problem. I mean for example, since Gobert has come back the 4-man lineup with Rubio, Mitch, Favors, Gobert is by FAR our worst 4-man lineup that is used frequently. And what is most surprising is that the defense is the biggest problem. The argument that this lineup for the most part exclusively plays the opposing starters is valid but facts are it just does not work.

In fact look at the 5-man lineups since Gobert came back. Look at how much more success from just swapping Favors or Gobert for a Jerebko or even Joe Johnson.
 
Donovan gets crunched on the perimeter when he's running with Rubio.
Donovan gets crunched in the paint when Favors and Gobert are clogging lanes.
 
DM has not been hitting his 3pt shots... and he started the year cold. So part of it is small sample size and the fluctuations that can occur.

The other issue is spacing. Have you played basketball and tried to drive when a team is playing a full zone? It is hard. You have to beat your guy and then the guy waiting for you... now imagine you get the best perimeter defender and three guys have no reason to leave the paint.

We need to play similar to Houston. 4 shooters and a roll man. If the guys playing 3 and 4 can be lock down defenders then great.

Short term we need one of our shooting 4s and long term Ricky needs to be sent somewhere else. Can wait until the end of the year.
 
MDAV28 said:
It's true, but it's not like there isn't validity to the problem. I mean for example, since Gobert has come back the 4-man lineup with Rubio, Mitch, Favors, Gobert is by FAR our worst 4-man lineup that is used frequently. And what is most surprising is that the defense is the biggest problem. The argument that this lineup for the most part exclusively plays the opposing starters is valid but facts are it just does not work.

In fact look at the 5-man lineups since Gobert came back. Look at how much more success from just swapping Favors or Gobert for a Jerebko or even Joe Johnson.
Click to expand...

Stretch bigs have such a huge impact on offense... we are still trying the caveman strategy so that we can trade Favs for a second rounder or watch him walk for nothing.
 
Rudy clogs the paint. He has gravity at the rim. It's what he does, and it's both a strength and a weakness. To make it work, the Jazz need multiple shooters spacing the floor and multiple creators taking advantage of the defense's decisions.

The Mavs won a chip by combining a legendary Dirk Nowitzki with Tyson Chandler dominating at the rim. Plus they had a great shooter in Jason Terry, a good floor general in Jason Kidd, and fairly athletic veteran wings in Shawn Marion and Vince Carter. The Jazz are dying to have a forward who can create his own shot out to the 3-pt line and knock it down, as well as play in the pick and roll. They don't have it. In theory, Hood was supposed to be that guy, but for some reason it hasn't worked much.

Now it's true that the Jazz would like to have a spaced-out floor and let guards like Mitchell and Exum attack the paint. If Gobert is in their way, it won't work as well. Gobert and his defender being in the paint will make it harder on guards to find lanes to attack, unless the Jazz are clever about how they use Rudy to set subtle screens. It's going to have to be a sophisticated set, and the Jazz don't have the pieces right now to make it work.
 
It's a learning curve. Like many have said.

1) Donovan is still a rook, but he's also being guarded by every team's very best defensive players.
2) Donovan and Rudy don't have chemistry yet, also Rudy doesn't look 100% in game shape yet either.
3) Rodney Hood being out, just exacerbates the spacing problems that already existed.

That being said, they aren't passing to each other enough. There have been a few times where Rudy has his hands up for the ball, and Donovan isn't throwing him the lob. Likewise, there have been times where Rudy needed to pass out of the post and did not. In a league where Kawhi Leonard and Damian Lillard are frustrated that they can't get more talent on their rosters to play with - DM and RG better figure it out.
 
MDAV28 said:
This is key, the problem is we have wings who pass up 3s like this for weird contested driving mid-range shots.
Click to expand...

And guys that can't shoot or defend (Ricky, Joe Johnson - defense, AB)
 
MDAV28 said:
It's true, but it's not like there isn't validity to the problem. I mean for example, since Gobert has come back the 4-man lineup with Rubio, Mitch, Favors, Gobert is by FAR our worst 4-man lineup that is used frequently. And what is most surprising is that the defense is the biggest problem. The argument that this lineup for the most part exclusively plays the opposing starters is valid but facts are it just does not work.

In fact look at the 5-man lineups since Gobert came back. Look at how much more success from just swapping Favors or Gobert for a Jerebko or even Joe Johnson.
Click to expand...
I know it's a problem. The pieces don't fit. DL needs to make some moves.
 
I really wish Quin wouldn't play Favors and Gobert at the same time. They just can't co-mingle unfortunately and it hurts the team so much.
 
Lack of spacing. Even when Mitchell was struggling with his shot in the last month or so, he was finding a way to go to the basket and be efficient this way. Now with Favors and Gobert (and Rubio) the paint gets packed and he's having trouble getting good shots.
 
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