Doufos is gone

[InGameStrategy]

I looked in the mirror and the image said "S2M is a moron and Fes sucks, regardless of some +/- ********". The mirror is smart.

Thank you for proving my point, given that you have no response except a personal attack, not that your original claim was rife with basis in the first place.

Impressive that your mirror image is able to communicate both at a time.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Boo hoo. Now my feelings are hurt. You want stats? How about this: 79 games played out of 246 while he has been here. Sounds like the multiple coaches feel he is really worth playing. Either that or the guy can't be healthy. What am I missing?

Your little diatribe was impressive, but I failed to see the facts that you are asking that I post. If the guy is as good as some on this board say, then why has he not been signed to a contract or an offer sheet? 7 foot plus guys are in such huge demand and here is this guy who has an "obvious influence" on games that is waiting for a contract. Apparently all of the GM's haven't yet talked to "multiple coaches, teammates etc" or someone would have offered this immensely talented center a contract. Instead, he sits, unsigned, while debates take place about whether $1-2M per is fair or if a third year should be offered.

OK; now I see your attempt at basis. Your assumption is that coaches and GMs correctly judge talent, and that assumption is clearly not true. You need not go farther than your own Utah Jazz to see that such an assumption is weak.

Do I hate Fes? No. I wish that he would step up and understand that with work he could have the world, but instead he is happy to be an NBA player but not actually play.

This doesn't have to do with liking or hating. I "like" Okur, perhaps as much or more than Fesenko. But Okur lets opposing players drive and/or rebound and/or score more than Fes does, not that Fes is perfect. I wish that the players whom Sloan tends to play (such as Boozer and Millsap together) were more effective, especially against athletic teams and contenders. But they aren't, and Sloan has failed to sufficiently adapt to this fact.

We've been through this exercise before: in no game in the Laker playoff series did the Lakers score more than the Jazz when Fesenko was in the game, and when he was in the game, more often than not they scored less inside. Yet at least two out of the four times, Sloan reverted to the comfortable CB + PM combo down the stretch, and it resulted in Utah losing a lead or a small deficit. Oh, and BTW, the same pattern happened repeatedly during the regular season. The key difference is that certain combinations with Fesenko were usually up against at least partial backups, whereas Fes was going against the starting lineup (including Bynum) for much of the Laker series.

I am optimistic that Jefferson will be at least modestly better defensively alongside Millsap than Boozer was. A frontcourt of AK, PM, and AJ can be pretty formidable on both ends. But Utah will still need Fesenko to win games, and Sloan should still find 10 to 15 MPG so that he can develop. Because despite your childish insults, reality is that big men especially need on-court playing time to develop, and although Fes doesn't score much (neither did Eaton nor Tag, btw), he still helps to control the paint even now.

 

[write4u]

Everyone agrees Fes needs more playing time, but I have a feeling his attitude and work ethic have been his downfall. I hope he is working on his free throws this summer.

I think he played fairly well against Denver and did okay in the Laker series considering everything ... his lack of prior playing time and being forced into a pressure series. He actually outplayed Bynum head-to-head one game, though Bynum admittedly was not 100 percent. I think he has made some improvement, but still needs a better attitude and work ethic. If he can satisfy Jerry in that regard, I think he will get more minutes. And Jerry just might have to play him in the beginning of the season because it's doubtful Memo will be able to play big minutes, if he is able to play at all.

So, Fes, if you're reading this, get to work!

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

S2, your points are noted. However, a player, especially a young player, can't be played on pure talent and ability alone, even if it seems evident that it's for the immediate good of the team. The chemistry of the entire team can be put at risk, damage irreparable.

 

[homeytennis]

Fes can be a talent in the league.

 

[InGameStrategy]

S2, your points are noted. However, a player, especially a young player, can't be played on pure talent and ability alone, even if it seems evident that it's for the immediate good of the team. The chemistry of the entire team can be put at risk, damage irreparable.

OK fine, but I didn't see that Fes was a real chemistry problem. He was a goof-off, but not a real distraction.

If it was for the immediate good of the team, then why not play him? I think that the he was not getting minutes because Sloan thought (incorrectly IMHO) that it would hurt the team. However, Utah lost several games because of the bad interior defense that even a raw Fes could've helped countervail.

I wouldn't have an argument except that Utah did better overall with Fesenko on the court. And if he had gotten more burn, then he would've been able to do more than control the paint. I think that Sloan based his minutes on off-court behavior, which doesn't necessarily translate to on-court contribution.

Allen Iverson is the poster child of that principle.

What Sloan put little effort in doing is finding even minimal time for him, even when the outcome of the game wasn't in question. An average of about 3 minutes per eligible game simply isn't enough for especially a big to develop. A coach's job is to develop and to identify strategic advantages, and Fesenko was one of the few Jazzmen who could actually help to neutralize the Laker frontcourt and control the paint against many other teams. Fortunately Utah let go Boozer, who was part of the problem defensively.

I see Jefferson as a better center than Boozer was (alongside Millsap). But Sloan still should get Fesenko 10 to 15 MPG because (1) you don't want to wear down AJ's knees, (2) bigs need on-court time to develop. If Fes performs poorly, limit him to ten minutes. If Fes performs well, give him closer to fifteen minutes or more.

Coaching 101.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Trading away the only healthy C on the roster, plus two firsts, for a guy that will probably never be 100% isn't the wisest thing to me, but we'll see.

The only reason I'm okay with this is because it gets the Jazz closer to under the LT. I guess, I still think it's *****.

 

[candrew]

Koufos will be kicking *** in Europe in 2 years.

 

[VINYLONE]

Trading away the only healthy C on the roster, plus two firsts, for a guy that will probably never be 100% isn't the wisest thing to me, but we'll see.

The only reason I'm okay with this is because it gets the Jazz closer to under the LT. I guess, I still think it's *****.

Why would you care if the Jazz are under the LT? Just wondering.

 

[VINYLONE]

Koufos will be kicking *** in Europe in 2 years.

So he's going to become a teacher? I don't get it.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Why would you care if the Jazz are under the LT? Just wondering.

A few reasons. Once over the LT, the Jazz might start dumping more assets (Harpring trade) just to get under. I also have a fear of financial insolvency for the franchise and that they become the Seattle Supersonics, the Vegas Jazz, or something like that. I know you couldn't be happier about that, but for us Utahns, that'd be terrible beyond words.

 

[VINYLONE]

A few reasons. Once over the LT, the Jazz might start dumping more assets (Harpring trade) just to get under. I also have a fear of financial insolvency for the franchise and that they become the Seattle Supersonics, the Vegas Jazz, or something like that. I know you couldn't be happier about that, but for us Utahns, that'd be terrible beyond words.

Understood.

The Seattle Jazz has a nice ring to it.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

OK fine, but I didn't see that Fes was a real chemistry problem. He was a goof-off, but not a real distraction.

If it was for the immediate good of the team, then why not play him? I think that the he was not getting minutes because Sloan thought (incorrectly IMHO) that it would hurt the team. However, Utah lost several games because of the bad interior defense that even a raw Fes could've helped countervail.

I wouldn't have an argument except that Utah did better overall with Fesenko on the court. And if he had gotten more burn, then he would've been able to do more than control the paint. I think that Sloan based his minutes on off-court behavior, which doesn't necessarily translate to on-court contribution.

Allen Iverson is the poster child of that principle.

What Sloan put little effort in doing is finding even minimal time for him, even when the outcome of the game wasn't in question. An average of about 3 minutes per eligible game simply isn't enough for especially a big to develop. A coach's job is to develop and to identify strategic advantages, and Fesenko was one of the few Jazzmen who could actually help to neutralize the Laker frontcourt and control the paint against many other teams. Fortunately Utah let go Boozer, who was part of the problem defensively.

I see Jefferson as a better center than Boozer was (alongside Millsap). But Sloan still should get Fesenko 10 to 15 MPG because (1) you don't want to wear down AJ's knees, (2) bigs need on-court time to develop. If Fes performs poorly, limit him to ten minutes. If Fes performs well, give him closer to fifteen minutes or more.

Coaching 101.

Yes, there may be no current chemistry issues revolving around Fes as far as the off-court/on-court dynamics of the team go. However, that doesn't mean they very well could exist at some point in time. If his antics (goofing around, smoking, mediocre work ethic) went unnoticed, and he was allowed to start or play 10-15 mpg as you suggest, a sort of cancer could set in on the team. It sets a bad precedent and essentially gives other guys the ability to become lazy or create ******** excuses (because that's really what they are) and still play, or if benched, bitch and moan that Fes plays yet is the biggest poo this side of TroutBum. Now, would Sloan lose control of a team like that? I doubt it. And I don't think that that's why Jerry benches him anyway. Sloan sits his *** down because, and I'm of course speculating here (but it seems fairly obvious though you think it's a meaningless point), he feels that giving unearned time to Fes would actually hinder his development and give him the impression that his half-assed work ethic is tolerable and he's meeting expectations. That's simply not true. Tough love can be very motivationally productive. And benching him may actually help his maximization of his development in the long-run more than hurt it, and more than playing him 10-15mpg could. Especially if him playing 10-15 mpg is only going to allow him to continue to form bad habits like not getting back on defense, getting into position, boxing out, rotating on d, etc.

 

[VINYLONE]

KEK, question.

Do you think Phil Jackson treats all of his players the same?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

KEK, question.

Do you think Phil Jackson treats all of his players the same?

No, you have to treat each player differently though a lazy work ethic, imo, should not be tolerated. And I wasn't pigeon-holing Jerry. He probably deals with Fes, based on what he's observed of the kid, as he best sees fit.

 

[VINYLONE]

No, you have to treat each player differently though a lazy work ethic, imo, should not be tolerated. And I wasn't pigeon-holing Jerry. He probably deals with Fes, based on what he's observed of the kid, as he best sees fit.

I think sometimes when a specific method used to motivate a player doesn't work, some times you try something else. I think this is Sloan's shortfall. He believe players should play, act and think like players of his generation.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I think sometimes when a specific method used to motivate a player doesn't work, some times you try something else. I think this is Sloan's shortfall. He believe players should play, act and think like players of his generation.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. In fact, I agree 110%. But who's to say what Sloan's doing isn't working? It's obvious Fes has made decent strides over his 36 months with us. Some players simply have a longer learning curve. And he started here essentially as a big kid and had to not only grow up as a human being, but do so in a completely foreign country, and in a league with greater expectations than anything he's ever encountered this side of Gorky Park. He's now what, 25 years old? He should have the lifestyle down pat by now so there really shouldn't be any excuses any more. A two year, 2.5-3M contract is fair and should be long enough to determine if Fes gets it and wants to be in this league 'til he's 35.

 

[VINYLONE]

I agree.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I agree.

You ****ing better.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Since I dont live in Utah, I personally wouldnt care if they moved, but I can see how it would be devastating for those that live in Utah.