Flat Tax and Tithing

[Stoked]

Sounds like an area ripe for tax fraud to me. So you are saying that people are getting rent , utilities , and food paid for, and probably not reporting it. It sure sounds like income to me. They might also be getting tax credits . I would think that this income should be reported for proper calculation of tax credits. Sounds like great potential for double dipping. If they are not filing a tax return, but not taking this income into account for this decision, maybe they really should be filing a tax return. Just because there is no 1099, does not mean that it should not be reported.

It is possible that the church should be doing a 1099 for payments over a certain amount, not sure on the rules for this.

Stokes was incorrectly stating that I wanted poor people to no longer be able to abuse the system through receiving income from churches and not reporting it as income. I am saying that if you got your wishes, than poor people would have to pay taxes on all income even though their income is so small that all of it is needed for things like rent and health care.

You claimed they (see poor people receiving assistance) should file taxes on it.

 

[green]

Yes. In earlier threads on this topic I've also given real life, first hand, accounts of rampant and blatant misuse of taxpayer monies due, mostly, to faulty budgetary protocols.. too much to type for now.. but I think it would be a fun thread for us to compile ways the government is wasting money (specifically) and start a list.

I'm all for taxes, obviously... but I HATE waste. If I don't stand for it in my own household and business, why should I stand for it (and keep throwing money at the problem) in governing the country.

Absolutely. The thing that drives me crazy is when government does their budget, they have the whole "use it or lose it" mentality. For example, if an agency is $100,000 under budget, instead of sending the money back, they will outfit the whole agency with new computers (replacing the ones they bought 2 years ago), hire another secretary and waste that $100,000. It's crazy.

 

[MoreFeasts]

You claimed they (see poor people receiving assistance) should file taxes on it.

I suggested that they should report it as income. Colton is the one who wants them to pay taxes on their income if they are poor, not me. IF they are poor, then they won't owe taxes on the income. You are assuming that all people who receive help from the church are poor. This may not be the case. From your description. it actually sounds like an area with great potential for people who are not poor to avoid paying taxes, by washing their income through a nonprofit.

 

[Stoked]

I suggested that they should report it as income. Colton is the one who wants them to pay taxes on their income if they are poor, not me. IF they are poor, then they won't owe taxes on the income. You are assuming that all people who receive help from the church are poor. This may not be the case.

You report it by filing taxes on it. Again, I am not talking about what Colton did or did not say. I am talking about what you have said. Stop confusing the two.

 

[MoreFeasts]

You are the one who is confusing things. I am just answering your obtuse questions. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Stoked]

You are the one who is confusing things. I am just answering your obtuse questions. We can agree to disagree.

Or you can admit what you have asked for in this thread. You stated that it should be reported as income. That means they file taxes on it.

I am not accusing you of anything bad. Just pointing out what you said.

 

[green]

This has all been about flat tax vs our current system. Why hasn't anyone mentioned a sales tax, and nothing more? This seems like the easiest thing to do. No income tax at all. Every red cent you earn is yours. You can bury it in the backyard if you want. If you make $10/hr and work 10 hrs, you get $100. Simple.

Then, just have a sales tax on food be lower (say, around 10%), and another sales tax on EVERYTHING else (around 30%). THEN, to assure that you aren't screwing over poorer people, every April they can send a copy of their W-2 forms and all the sales tax they paid on food to the IRS and get refunds based on income (for example, if you made less than $40,000 you get 100% back, if you made less than $60,000 you get 50% back and if you made less than $100,000 you get 25% back).

Problem solved. Everyone can eat, everyone pays taxes, the big spenders pay more taxes than the little spenders.

 

[green]

Absolutely. The thing that drives me crazy is when government does their budget, they have the whole "use it or lose it" mentality. For example, if an agency is $100,000 under budget, instead of sending the money back, they will outfit the whole agency with new computers (replacing the ones they bought 2 years ago), hire another secretary and waste that $100,000. It's crazy.

The biggest problem with this thinking is that most agencies will hire someone else or give raises (not bonuses) and by doing so, the INCREASE their budget for the next year. If they were at least smart enough to not hire or give a bonus instead of a raise, they could plateau their budget.

The biggest problem with government is it is being run more and more by people who have never accomplished anything in their lives (and no, graduating from law school, failing at law and becoming a politician is not accomplishing anything).

 

[MoreFeasts]

Or you can admit what you have asked for in this thread. You stated that it should be reported as income. That means they file taxes on it.

I am not accusing you of anything bad. Just pointing out what you said.

No, you have a great way of twisting words around to deceive people. Where did I deny saying that they should report their income as income? Go ahead and quote anything I said in this thread that is incorrect. You can't do it , can you? I have pointed out a number of your errors, and you just ignore these things, while pushing a trivial false argument.

 

[Stoked]

No, you have a great way of twisting words around to deceive people. Go ahead and quote anything I said in this thread that is incorrect. You can't do it , can you?

I never accused you of anything incorrect.

 

[Stoked]

No, you have a great way of twisting words around to deceive people. Go ahead and quote anything I said in this thread that is incorrect. You can't do it , can you? I have pointed out a number of your errors, and you just ignore the important things I say while nitpicking over sophistic semantics.

I've missed you Northeast.

 

[HipHopAnonymous]

The welfare system in the LDS church is generally very short-term, especially when it comes to paying utilities. The LDS Church RARELY pays someone's rent or mortgage payments. You can google or bing "Is charitable aid taxable?" and the answer I read on several Q&A sites by CPA's was "NO." Now there might be a different standard or threshold for cash gifts, and that might be why the LDS Church writes out a check to the particular utility vs. giving a person cash to deposit in their bank account.

I have a family member who works in the insurance business and regularly receives checks from the church for auto/home even life insurance premiums. Not just once in a while for one person. REGULARLY.

 

[One Brow]

I see everyone paying something, even if some people receive it and more back in various forms (including cash), as a way to make everyone feel invested and that everyone is in this together. When 50% of people pay no tax, yet have a voice in how many benefits they should receive and how much actual taxpayers should pay I think it generates the kind of resentment and distrust we see in every aspect of politics today.

Just about everyone not in prison or on the streets pays property taxes (either directly or as part of their rent). The same for sales taxes. Anyone with wages pays Medicare. While some people might have no income tax taken out of their paycheck, even back when I qualified for the maximum Earned Income Credit there will still federal income taxes taxes that came out of my check (I got them back at the end of the year thanks to the credit). When people say that 50% pay not tax, that just means that at the end of the year, their net federal income tax burden was zero.

 

[One Brow]

Could the IRS penalize me for not reporting the check my grandma sends me for my birthday?

Depends on the size of the check (it would need to be thousands). There is a gift tax, but as I understand it, it has a large deduction.

 

[MoreFeasts]

You claimed they (see poor people receiving assistance) should file taxes on it.

The use of the word file , a word I did not use, is a source of confusion. I did not use the word file.

I said people in general should report money from charity as income if it is a substantial amount.
I did not say that they should pay taxes on it if they are poor.
If their income , including charity, is below the filing threshold, then they would not have to file.
I did not specify poor people, but people in general. You focused on poor people, not me.

It appears that charity may not be considered income under current law. I have not seen a definitive answer on this.
So you are incorrect in your implication that I wanted to take away a loophole from poor people.
I want to take away a loophole from people who are not poor.
I also said that I think that if they get multiple gifts from multiple charities , that these amounts should be taken into account when applying for government assistance, because all of these things taken together may mean that they are not really poor. . I don't know the current law in that either.

 

[Stoked]

Sounds like an area ripe for tax fraud to me. So you are saying that people are getting rent , utilities , and food paid for, and probably not reporting it. It sure sounds like income to me. They might also be getting tax credits . I would think that this income should be reported for proper calculation of tax credits. Sounds like great potential for double dipping. If they are not filing a tax return, but not taking this income into account for this decision, maybe they really should be filing a tax return. Just because there is no 1099, does not mean that it should not be reported.

It is possible that the church should be doing a 1099 for payments over a certain amount, not sure on the rules for this.

The use of the word file , a word I did not use, is a source of confusion. I did not use the word file.

I said people in general should report money from charity as income if it is a substantial amount.
I did not say that they should pay taxes on it if they are poor.
If their income , including charity, is below the filing threshold, then they would not have to file.
I did not specify poor people, but people in general. You focused on poor people, not me.

It appears that charity may not be considered income under current law. I have not seen a definitive answer on this.

Please continue.

 

[MoreFeasts]

Depends on the size of the check (it would need to be thousands). There is a gift tax, but as I understand it, it has a large deduction.

Grandma pays the gift tax, not the recipient.

 

[One Brow]

Yes they do. You can buy shrimp and steaks with food stamps. My wife and I FINALLY went on food stamps our last year of schooling after watching our classmates eat like kings. We would bring hot dogs to cookouts while they brought shrimp, bacon wrapped steaks, etc. We were given over $800 a month for food for two adults, a two year old and an infant. We have NEVER eaten as good as when we were on food stamps and we currently make WELL OVER six figures a year.

With a family of seven, in 2005, I didn't receive that much in food stamps. I agree that's very generous (unless you live in Alaska or Hawaii, anyhow).

 

[One Brow]

So why do all of the liberals ideas just enslave people?

They don't.

Liberals ideas cause dependance, not liberty.

This is a myth. You are much freer to take chances when you have security.

Yet, they continue to push those ideas, even when they have all failed and bankrupted many cities/states.

We can go through many failed/bankrupted states, some of which had liberal ideals and some of which did not, and I don't think you'll find a single case where liberal ideals were the primary cause of bankruptcy or failure.

 

[Stoked]

With a family of seven, in 2005, I didn't receive that much in food stamps. I agree that's very generous (unless you live in Alaska or Hawaii, anyhow).

Each state is different.