leftyjace
Well-Known Member
Not sure what angle you're coming from. Could you elaborate a little?
Flat Tax and Tithing
- Thread starter The Thriller
- Start date
Not sure what angle you're coming from. Could you elaborate a little?
You mean, grow up in a poor neighborhood? I did. You mean, work for wages that put someone at/near the poverty threshold? I have. You mean, work for a company focused on serving the poor, with programs in particular for those living on the street? I do. No ivory here. We are generally successful at removing the mold and cockroaches.
I don't see the connection between this, and my statement that poorest people spend a much larger percentage of their income on things they need, as opposed to things they want.
Of course I think my values are the best ones. If I thought your values were better than mine, I would adopt your values. Do you hold to values you think are inferior?
As for moral authority, I consider the alternative to be moral bankruptcy. It's easy to forget, or not realize, just how much luck and circumstance play into our success, through no merit of our own. Further, it's easy to think of ourselves as isolated, a separate entity and ignore the various influences we have on others and others have on us. However, humanity is a highly interconnected species in reality. We earn our money as participants in a society, and it would not be possible to do so otherwise. Saying the society that made the money possible has a claim on it as well is just, not criminal.
Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that we can measure impact of not having a penny, a dollar, or a cup of coffee on a person.
Pretty sure he said cheaters will still cheat.
While failing to recognize the cheaters aren't cheating. Theyre taking advantage of tax law designed to promote growth across all income sectors. The laws are antiquated and ill-conceived, but they're still the law. It would be an amazing financial disaster (and decades ago) if the government failed to reward entreprenuers for taking risks.
Everyone I know, only exploits the opportunites given.. and will continue to play by the rules regardless.. creative yes... but not going to evade and risk everything.
Funny, that sounds like what the typical right-wingers say.
If I have access to new books, one for each student, and you have to share a decade-old book with two other people, are our opportunities equal? If I had protein and fruit for breakfast, and all you could afford was bread (yes, the former breakfast does improve cognitive functioning), are our opportunities equal?
No one in the main-steam US political system supports "equalling out the results of individual efforts", but many say there is more to equal opportunities than just saying you can apply for any particular job.
I agree. My point is that a flat tax won't fix that, and it will make the current system even more unfair.
Someone once quoted to me that tithing is fire insurance; insinuating that in the last days the world will be purged in fire, except for those that paid a full and honest tithe. It was a Seminary teacher, and I really kind of find that line to be extortive(no, I don't think it's a real word either) in nature. Not sure where my belief takes me on that, other than if you don't need money you ain't getting mine. The LDS church seems to be doing quite fine on it's own (estimated $5 billion in 2000), having not only cash on hand, but many profitable investments to keep them moving forward, so at what point should leadership ask themselves "How about we give our guys the year off?" Again, that's none of my business. Just sayin.
As far as tax rates go, "worth" is objective. Sure, the single jerk making 100k can more easily afford 10k than a guy supporting two kids that makes 10k can afford 1k. Anyone arguing that didn't really think it through before, or after their third grande double Moroccan latte, dripped through baby seal filter and sprinkled with saffron dust. Tax on any person should exist, they should be given allowances and/or penalties. But this wouldn't be anywhere near as much a concern(and we wouldn't be in debt as far as we are) if the big businesses would just pay an honest tax. It is beyond belief that GE, and companies like them, pay 0 tax year after year. Often even getting money back.
The statement of a "full and honest tithe" should apply to taxes too. I just wish large corporations could feel like they're a part of something, instead of working so hard to avoid helping the country.
As far as tax rates go, "worth" is objective. Sure, the single jerk making 100k can more easily afford 10k than a guy supporting two kids that makes 10k can afford 1k. Anyone arguing that didn't really think it through before, or after their third grande double Moroccan latte, dripped through baby seal filter and sprinkled with saffron dust. Tax on any person should exist, they should be given allowances and/or penalties. But this wouldn't be anywhere near as much a concern(and we wouldn't be in debt as far as we are) if the big businesses would just pay an honest tax. It is beyond belief that GE, and companies like them, pay 0 tax year after year. Often even getting money back.
The statement of a "full and honest tithe" should apply to taxes too. I just wish large corporations could feel like they're a part of something, instead of working so hard to avoid helping the country.
I see this with a very idiotic twist. I routinely see people that are very poor buy an item they need in a very wanting way.
For example. They need a cell phone, so they buy an iphone/galaxyS2 instead of a basic cell phone. They need food but buy crap like shrimp, steaks and exotic cheeses.
My experiences with the poor rival yours.
HipHopAnonymous
Active Member
Are there people that choose to spend their income in phones, shoes, and steaks as opposed to housing and cars? Sure. Does that mean they are poor? Not necessarily. If you can afford to spend $100/month on your phone and $500/month on your food, that's $7200 before we even talk about rent, utilities, transportation, etc. You think many people at $10,000/year live like that, and say you have "experiences" with the poor?
HipHopAnonymous
Active Member
I bet you could find a large percentage of "poor" people who have Directv & smart phones who are driving around with no car insurance or don't have health insurance. Poor people are usually poor (or at least stay poor) because they make bad decisions.
Nothing like a good dose of victim-blaming and self-justification to get you through the day.
Food stamps. The people I deal with are amoung the poorest in the country. Not my fault you choose to ingore the way many of them choose to spend their money.
Nothing like paying taxes to help the poor and watching them make horrendous decisions (some not all). Then getting mad about it and having some self appointed crusader try to make you feel bad for your opinion.
So, sincere question.. how do you propose we have everyone have equal opportunities (as you've described above) without equalling out individual efforts/incomes? Where do you draw the line? Why stop at fruit and protein for breakfast? How is it equal opportunity for a job if my dad buys me a nice suit, buys me a nice car, gets me a great haircut, helps me with a professional resume, that resume includes an MBA from Georgetown........
Where is the line drawn?
My fear of stretching equality to far is removing the incentive of entreprenuers to have individual success. Maybe I'm wrong and the country would be fine.. but it frightens me.. and would whether I'm rich or poor. Btw, if I didn't have a job and I was told I could get one as long as I gave my blessing to the government to reward some random guy for starting a new company in my town... I'd be all for it.
I don't often agree with One Brow on social issues, but I do here. I am completely against a flat tax structure for this same reason. Now should the current tax rules be changed? Almost certainly. But a flat tax is not the answer.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
Cheezus, are some of you actually in favour of a flat-tax?!?
I love Canada more and more with each passing day
I love Canada more and more with each passing day
We like having you there.
I'm not arguing a flat tax.. but tax reform, sure.
As a self-described novice in economics... where are you coming from, btw?
So which part entails the injustice, wealthy people being able to have things they want above and beyond their needs or poor people not being able to have much beyond what they need to live?
If wealthy people having things they want is not an injustice in and of itself then they don't deserve to be penalized for it. Also, if that's an injustice then there is no problem with the poor, they're living exactly the way a person ought to live.
If the problem is that poor people don't have things they want, the solution is not to take it away from someone else and give it to them.
If wealthy people having things they want is not an injustice in and of itself then they don't deserve to be penalized for it. Also, if that's an injustice then there is no problem with the poor, they're living exactly the way a person ought to live.
If the problem is that poor people don't have things they want, the solution is not to take it away from someone else and give it to them.