Following potential 2014 draftees

[cowhide]

I watched 30 mins of DX video. Gordon and Vonleh. many of you might know all this, but because I watched their videos, I thought I'd post what I saw.
.
Short summary:
These two appear similar but are "opposites:" Gordon is 6' 8.75", Vonleh is 6' 9.5" So being only .75" difference they appear the same. But Gordon is the athlete, with short (8' 9") reach, plays above the rim, high BBIQ, but has minimal natural hand-eye coordination. Vonleh is the 9' 2" standing reach guy, who plays below the rim, who has low BBIQ, but has very good hand eye coordination. Going forward this decision is who you bet on to overcome their one key flaw: Gordon's hand-eye problem or Vonleh's BBIQ deficiency. (it wasn't perfectly clear who has more 'intangibles' but DX gave high marks to Gordon in this regard.)
.
.
Long Write up on the DX video scouting reports on AG and NV.
DX outlines some positives, and some on the negatives. Assuming the samples are relevant, here's my two cents.
.
Aaron Gordon 15mins total video, 10 on positives 5 on negs:
Gordon Positives:
- Quick jumping is very effective. Hence the comparisons to AK. He already uses the “quick 2-handed AK” dunk around the rim very well. While we can compare combine numbers (Vonleh, 31” and 37” max jump #’s compared to Gordon 32.5” and 39”) it is clear that Gordon can jump a WHOLE LOT BETTER than Vonleh at this point.
- His ability to reb, drive to the other end of the floor and , then finish with a dunk was quite impressive.
- BBIQ is high. “Almost always in the right position to help on D.” This is correlated to BBIQ and determination. DX claims high marks on “intangibles” and this bears out from their sample of video clips. DX used the term “extremely” unselfish.
- his D is legimately good on "small forward" type players or smaller. He can stay with them and moves laterally very well.
.
Gordon Negs
- Bad low post scorer. His low post game looked “immature” but not horrid to me.
- Bad “touch near rim.” This is true. As a leaper, he was surprisingly very, very clunky in the samples shown. I believe this is a sign of innate hand eye coordination, which is low. (upside is in the clips of his bad touch, he was crashing about getting his own rebounds…)
- Bad on catch and shoots, bad off the dribble shots.
- Bad on free throws. This is horrific. This plus his shooting woes and near-the-rim touch indicates he simply doesn’t have innate hand-eye coordination. It is possible (not being a sports physician) that at 18 and having the ultra athletic ability that hand-eye is will come later – hmmm.
- Poor D rebounding – I’m perplexed by this given his motor on O-rebs. It must come from the him being so young and focused on the offense. But the videos showed him standing and watching a lot...
- Poor Post D. To me, this was clearly a function of strength and his positioning. He holds his hands straight in the air and stands quite upgright. Post D is much about body position for withstanding the pounding by offensive post player… I give him a pass, because strength is much about the quantity of time (he 18). Also, his postion D as a ‘small forward’ is
.
.
Noah Vonleh 15min total 8min positive 7 min negative.
Vonleh Postivies
- His ‘physicality’… this is the center of his attraction. He’s 240lbs, 7-4 wingspan, huge hands. So he must be NBA ready.
- His Post D. I agree with the DX eval, however, he is bigger than his peers. In NBA, D Favors noted that about himself that he’s not big enough to hang with Centers… But Vonleh can handle those his size I believe. (Favors and Vonleh are about the same: DF= 6'10.25", 245, 9'2" reach.... NV 6-9.5, 247, 9'2" reach. But DF is more above the rim guy.)
- His offensive touch is great. 3pt capable, (nice stroke) face up 16 footer looks good, he has a left and right hook at this point that are good. 71% freethrow shooter. It is clear he has the hand eye coordination.
.
Vonleh Negs:
- Low BBIQ seems real. He has "the handles" to do spin moves and dribble between the legs but it has the appearance of being for show or simply rehearsed moves and not for legitimate effect. There were plenty of samples of getting into trouble with multiple defenders, and not looking for a pass or losing the ball. Also, not very endearing is the number of times he fell down in these difficult moments. To me, that is a psychological effect of being defeated or giving up. Not attractive. Most damning is his lack of BBIQ on D... Some of the lapses that were shown would have me gouging my eyes out as a coach. It is reasonable to me that he was limited to ~20ish mins per game.

I don't know how Gordon lowpost game could be bad since he finishes 72 percent of his shots around the basket while Vonleh only finishes 59 percent. Granted many are dunks but still he has to be average at low post in order to still have 72 percent. The main reason why I like Gordon a tad over Vonleh is Gordon's ability to guard the SF position. My biggest concern with Gordon is his shooting but I don't think his shot is broken and that he can improve his shooting and FTs.

 

[cowhide]

And to compound the "opposites" issue on the Gordon/Vonleh debate, is that NV is a PF who Jazz have plenty of, and AG is really a SF which Jazz don't have.

Also, it seems clear to me why NV stock would rise during the pre-draft activities. His physical skillsets are easier to see and demonstrate: measurements and his hand-eye coordination. They are impressive. Gordon will not impress with his shooting prowess.

So between these two, it boils down to:
Will NV ever have the BBIQ to be a complete player?
Will AG ever obtain the shooting skill to be a complete player.

And do you take BPA or Need-based?

I choose Vonleh. The stuff he's missing can be pounded into him with time. And over time, AG will be as good as AK at shooting. That would be my prediction.

I think you are forgetting one thing about Gordon, he works his butt off while AK never did. I think it is a toss up and I would be happy with either player, however I think I would go with Gordon. When two players are basically the same level then I look at positional need.

 

[spycam1]

I don't know how Gordon lowpost game could be bad since he finishes 72 percent of his shots around the basket while Vonleh only finishes 59 percent. Granted many are dunks but still he has to be average at low post in order to still have 72 percent. The main reason why I like Gordon a tad over Vonleh is Gordon's ability to guard the SF position. My biggest concern with Gordon is his shooting but I don't think his shot is broken and that he can improve his shooting and FTs.

I don't remember the exact number, but Gordon only attempted a handful of jump hooks all season. His % is that high cause he dunked. A lot. And all of those dunks came off of cuts, put backs, and in transition. He didn't show a lot of footwork or touch in the low post at Arizona.

 

[Jazz4ever]

I don't know how Gordon lowpost game could be bad since he finishes 72 percent of his shots around the basket while Vonleh only finishes 59 percent. Granted many are dunks but still he has to be average at low post in order to still have 72 percent. The main reason why I like Gordon a tad over Vonleh is Gordon's ability to guard the SF position. My biggest concern with Gordon is his shooting but I don't think his shot is broken and that he can improve his shooting and FTs.

Lobs, transition, and garbage points. Also if he played in the Big 10 like Vonleh he wouldn't be close to 72%.

 

[Harcher]

I think you are forgetting one thing about Gordon, he works his butt off while AK never did. I think it is a toss up and I would be happy with either player, however I think I would go with Gordon. When two players are basically the same level then I look at positional need.

His intangebles are highly rated, which gives me hope for his improve ment. Gordon was also all over the court with hustle and fight in him which is a great sign. I realize there are a lot of people who have overcome shooting troubles, but has anyone ever come from where AG is at this point?

 

[Stifle Tower]

im not sold that hes always going to be this 'under the rim' player, with that type of vertical at 18 and his body type, if the Jazz were to send him to p3 every summer, you couldnt tell me that he wouldnt be improving yearly. compared to Gordon, sure hes not that type of jumper, but at 247lbs, 37" inches is enough of a jump, thats not BS, he can jump, I always predicted he would best 36"... Burks didnt always show that vertical in-game, but in year 3 we saw more of it, i could see that being the case with Vonleh.

Great analysis, PG_AB.
After seeing how much emphasis the Jazz have placed on players going to P3, and the results from all that work, I'm not convinced it's the best use of their time. How many games were lost due to a player not leaping one inch higher? Yes, maybe there's a time or two a player just manages tipping a ball with his fingers or gets a rebound just out of the reach of another player. But the jazz lost games because a) they couldn't shoot and b) they didn't play defense. Those are the things the players need to be working on.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

All the nit-picking on Vonleh's game is proof of how good he could be. Where as there are real concerns to why we shouldn't pick Gordon at 5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stifle Tower]

All the nit-picking on Vonleh's game is proof of how good he could be. Where as there are real concerns to why we shouldn't pick Gordon at 5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find it interesting everyone is hoping Vonleh's stock rises and makes Jabari fall. Yes, Parker, the guy whose position isn't even a given. Is he a PF? Umm, no....because we want to plug him in next to Kanter and Favors. So we have a SF who has the lateral speed of a sloth. Jabari is going to be Boozer, Part Deux. Great offensive numbers, can't guard a cardboard cutout.

 

[Bodhi]

His intangebles are highly rated, which gives me hope for his improve ment. Gordon was also all over the court with hustle and fight in him which is a great sign. I realize there are a lot of people who have overcome shooting troubles, but has anyone ever come from where AG is at this point?

I'm genuinely wondering the same thing. Who was the last athletic freak with no discernible offensive game out of college that went on to become an all-star? Admittedly I haven't put too much thought into it so do the work for me.

Basically, when was the last time a kid like AG panned out?

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

His intangebles are highly rated, which gives me hope for his improve ment. Gordon was also all over the court with hustle and fight in him which is a great sign. I realize there are a lot of people who have overcome shooting troubles, but has anyone ever come from where AG is at this point?

I'm sure he will improve, but his offense is so bad, that I don't see him ever being much more then average. He needs work to get to AK's level. And unless he's Karl Malone great I don't ever see him becoming even level with Favors at the ft line. He's a bit of a liability on offense and always will be. Not worth the fith pick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Game6Conley]

Basically, when was the last time a kid like AG panned out?

this is something ive been trying to figure out, obviously its not critical to his success but i think its nice to see some historical reference. when you limit the search to top 5 picks, MKG, Jeff Green, Marvin and Darius Miles and maybe Tyrus Thomas come to mind.

when you expand it to top 10 picks; Corey Brewer, Yaroslav Korolev, Josh Childress, Shane Battier, Iguodala, Joe Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, Al-Farouq Aminu

expand it to lottery picks: Al Thornton, Julian Wright, Jared Jeffries, Richard Jefferson, Luol Deng, Thaddeus Young and Earl Clark

alot of these may seem like loose fitting examples but i dont think theres much better ones out there to find, of that group Iguodala, Luol Deng and Jefferson are the only ones who have really panned out, and all 3 are better shooters than Gordon

"Glorified Roleplayer" is a very legitimate concern with Gordon, especially in the top 5

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

I'm genuinely wondering the same thing. Who was the last athletic freak with no discernible offensive game out of college that went on to become an all-star? Admittedly I haven't put too much thought into it so do the work for me.

Basically, when was the last time a kid like AG panned out?

this is something ive been trying to figure out, obviously its not critical to his success but i think its nice to see some historical reference. when you limit the search to top 5 picks, MKG, Jeff Green, Marvin and Darius Miles and maybe Tyrus Thomas come to mind.

when you expand it to top 10 picks; Corey Brewer, Yaroslav Korolev, Josh Childress, Shane Battier, Iguodala, Joe Alexander, Danilo Gallinari

expand it to lottery picks: Al Thornton, Julian Wright, Jared Jeffries, Richard Jefferson, Luol Deng, Thaddeus Young

alot of these may seem like loose fitting examples but i dont think theres much better ones out there to find, of that group other than Iguodala, Luol Deng and Jefferson are the only ones who have really panned out, and all 3 are better shooters than Gordon

"Glorified Roleplayer" is a very legitimate criticism of Gordon, especially in the top 5

Dudes, I share your concerns... but comments like Gordon has "zero offense" have got to stop. He handles, passes, rebounds, finishes, and shoots too well for that label. IMO.

A good coach can bring him along by getting him offense from where he's most comfortable. Gordon is so athletic that I think he'll be able to pick those spots for himself (rather than having athletic deficits pick them for him).

I think he's a reach at 5, but probably not at 7 or 8.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

Think about what Sloan was able to do for Ronnie Brewer. If Gordon was some hybrid between Brewer and AK, and if he improved his shot over a couple of years, then I think a lot of people would be pretty happy with that pick. His shot isn't even 10% as broken as Ronnie's.

 

[Bodhi]

I never said "zero offense".....ever. I said he has no discernible role on offense. Defensively I think he could be really good....not the "god" others think he will be defensively, but really good.

I just can't make a case to take him at 5. Especially over Smart and Vonleh.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

I never said "zero offense".....ever. I said he has no discernible role on offense. Defensively I think he could be really good....not the "god" others think he will be defensively, but really good.

I just can't make a case to take him at 5. Especially over Smart and Vonleh.

yeah, sorry dude, I see how that was confusing. I didn't mean to say that you specifically were a "zero offense" guy. I just meant that there are plenty out there. ^I agree with this post^

I've said that Gordon seems like the 7th or 8th pick.

 

[Bodhi]

yeah, sorry dude, I see how that was confusing. I didn't mean to say that you specifically were a "zero offense" guy. I just meant that there are plenty out there. ^I agree with this post^

I've said that Gordon seems like the 7th or 8th pick.

I can agree with that.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I can agree with that.

And I agree with your agreement.

Gordon is going to be a nice player. Could he be great? Sure. But he's been playing bball for how many years? I've seen 12-yr olds with better accuracy. Heck, when I was 9, I was an 80% FT-shooter and hit 25 straight in a camp competition...and I lost!

I just hesitate to put much stock in a guy drafted for his great athleticism. With Vonleh, the tools are there; he's already a good shooter and a decent defender.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
1998-99 29 32.9 18.7 52.9 29.9 73.0 1.2 9.3 1.9 2.5

shawn marions college numbers. he was still a good FT shooter

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2013-14 38 31.2 12.4 49.5 35.6 42.2 2.0 8.0 1.0 0.9

gordons numbers

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2010-11 36 32.6 15.5 44.4 29.1 75.9 2.5 10.6 0.6 1.4
2009-10 34 31.3 12.7 45.5 20.5 72.6 1.9 9.9 0.7 1.4

kawhi Leonard's stats

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2011-12 40 31.1 11.9 49.1 25.5 74.5 1.9 7.4 0.9 1.0

mkg's stats

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2009-10 31 31.3 15.8 44.7 27.3 69.8 1.3 10.7 1.4 1.4
2008-09 31 29.0 12.9 51.6 17.9 67.1 1.5 8.2 1.2 1.0

al-Farouq aminu stats

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2003-04 37 31.1 15.1 47.5 36.0 71.0 1.8 6.9 1.1 1.3

luol deng

 

[silesian]

Future firsts are in play

, or the GS 2017.

Gs's first and future jazz firsts are definitely in play if the jazz see quality to move up this year. Especially if they see a potential allstar in picks 10 to 20.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Dudes, I share your concerns... but comments like Gordon has "zero offense" have got to stop. He handles, passes, rebounds, finishes, and shoots too well for that label. IMO.

A good coach can bring him along by getting him offense from where he's most comfortable. Gordon is so athletic that I think he'll be able to pick those spots for himself (rather than having athletic deficits pick them for him).

I think he's a reach at 5, but probably not at 7 or 8.

I have a problem with the things that are highlighted.

1. His handles aren't that good, and shoots too well, I think not. (biggest weakness)

2. I don't even think he's worth 7 or 8. My best case is 15, and most likely only worth 20-25. All he will do is take away the paint, because no one will fear his shot, just like when Brewer was here. Yes this will allow him to slash and get shots at the rim, but that means he will get fouled most of the time as the defender will be waiting for him, and what a surprise, he misses over half his ft's. I have a feeling his, and MKG's scouting reports are very similar, athletic, great defense, IQ, passing, bad shooting.

Many are justifying Gordon's weaknesses due to character, and work ethic, and high IQ, and saying he will improve leaps and bounds because of these traits, well MKG had all these traits, and it has only allowed him to improve slightly.

This doesn't mean he will bust, but it's just as likely he will be just a glue guy or role player as he is to be a Allstar or very good player. I don't see how we can justify taking him top five or even top ten.

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
1998-99 29 32.9 18.7 52.9 29.9 73.0 1.2 9.3 1.9 2.5

shawn marions college numbers. he was still a good FT shooter

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG%FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2013-14 38 31.2 12.4 49.5 35.6 42.2 2.0 8.0 1.0 0.9

gordons numbers

Good post and very eye popping numbers