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Following Potential 2025 Draftees

jom2003 said:
When have I ever said Rudy and Donovan are afterthoughts? Just look up my comments back from 2019-2022 and I've always said over and over that those two were great players, fantastic players being let down by an incompetent management that is Dennis Lindsey. And yes I actually agreed with you by saying Rudy made it to WCF with the wolves, aka one of the worst run organizations in all of American sports, on his second year... when DL failed to do so for 7 ****ing seasons. And Donovan's trip to his first ever conference final isn't far from the horizon either. And honestly this really shouldn't have happened, don't you think? We absolutely should've made it to at least one WCF when we had those two on our team. I mean 12 teams out of 15 in the West managed to do it since 2013 when DL took over, which left us, the kings and Pelicans to be the only teams that missed out. How can you possibly defend that? Do these 12 other teams have some guys that “dont grow on trees”?

And you know I'm not just talking about Grayson Allen. Allen is merely a symptom to the bigger problem. What about Trey Burke? What about DedEx and gave him a 3 yr fully guaranteed extension knowing his injury risk? What about selling your pick when Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Clarkson and the ****ng Joker was still available? What about the balance test on Lyles? What about taking Tony Bradley over Derrick White and Josh Hart? What about the historic blunder that ended up getting him fired that is the Dokey Azubuikey? And don't even get me started on his absolute ****** management of "bAcKuP CeNteRs" and "point guard rentals". Just tell me why do we still owe a FRP to OKC in the middle of rebuild when OKC is contending for a title?

All in all, this really shouldn't have happened. Both DM and Rudy are still in the middle of their prime and should still be on the team. Instead, we can only watch both these guys contending for a chip with other teams on national TV while us jazz fans having to ensure this painful process of a tank. And we only have DL to thank.
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I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.
 
jom2003 said:
Nah that's a reach. Tatum was already very polished offensively as a prospect. Basically everything that Ace isn't.
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Damn near identical per 100 stats for Ace/Tatum (big differences in FT% and a difference in assist, but everything else is pretty close)

Tatum played with two future rotation NBA players (Kennard/Grayson) along with two in/out of the league NBA players (Giles/Frank Jackson) and all their rotation guards/wings could shoot well. I would say Tatum's floor spacing and team around him was undeniably better, as well as being coached by a college GOAT. Tatum was also about 6 months older than Bailey as a Freshman. I would agree that Tatum was more polished, and more well-rounded, but it's not to some crazy degree. I feel like we are talking about Ace like he's GG Jackson.
 
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KqWIN said:
I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.
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I think DL was undeniably good. The bar isnt super high for what makes a good GM, and when you operate in a small market you are playing at a disadvantage and you have to give those GM's a grade on a slight curve.
 
Chargers Jazz Angels said:

View: https://youtu.be/zi99767i-nU?si=4bapsBrkyU1wEmIg
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I've seen people talk about Micah Peavy, but when I look at his career Im really underwhelmed. He's having his first good season as a 5th year senior after transferring to a worse conference than he played in his first 4 years. Bad shooter all 4 years prior to this year, still has a bad FT% this year. Would be an interesting undrafted 2-way player, but not someone I would draft. His highlights this year do look impressive.

I dont really see Isaiah Evans as a sleeper. He was a top 20 HS recruit.

I love Cedric Coward, too bad he tore his ACL. I think he probably returns to school? If he doesnt, he would be a top target in the 2nd round to me as he had the potential, in my eyes, to be a top 20 prospect this season.

Im also high on Stirtz, but I dont see him entering the NBA. He's got a child's body currently. He needs to transfer up and improve his body, but he's super skilled and a great player. His team made the Tourney, so I think he does have a chance if he goes on a Cinderella run (which is possible because Drake beat multiple high major teams this season)
 
KqWIN said:
I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.
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Attacking me or calling me “irrational” still doesn't explain why we failed to make a trip to the WCF despite having “two future HoFers” when 12 other teams have done it over that same period. You judge a GM’s work by result and DL has nothing to show for it. Again I don't understand your concept of “success” when we are basically in the same category as the Kings and Pelicans. Just cant rationalize it I'm sorry.

You kept emphasizing how important DM/Rudy were to our franchise then why did we end up letting them go?

Could it be that DL already ran the team into the ground with his dumb move after dumb move until there was no way out?

And yes this is a draft thread so while DL does take some credit for DM/Rudy pick, we can still call out his other terrible draft picks. Bad moves add up over time especially for a small market team like us. No big name FA is gonna come here for the rescue so we have to nail our draft picks. But DL failed repeatedly until we had to do a full teardown just to keep our own FRP protected from OKC’s reach.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I think DL was undeniably good. The bar isnt super high for what makes a good GM, and when you operate in a small market you are playing at a disadvantage and you have to give those GM's a grade on a slight curve.
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I think for a small market GM the bar is higher on the draft cuz there isn't as big of margin for error compared to big market teams like LA who can just go and sign FAs to make up their roster. So the majority of our roster with role players included need to be coming from the draft.

When comparing to other WCF teams our market are just as comparable to teams like Memphis, Portland, SAS, Denver, OKC, Minny. So not sure you can give DL much of an excuse and call it a success when all these small market teams have reached the WCF, the finals and even won a chip since 2013 while we can’t. All these teams have something in common that is they built their core mostly through the draft.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I think DL was undeniably good. The bar isnt super high for what makes a good GM, and when you operate in a small market you are playing at a disadvantage and you have to give those GM's a grade on a slight curve.
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I have mixed thoughts about DL. But if you’re just gonna go “well besides drafting two star players” it’s quite obvious you’re not trying to grade him with sincerity. That’s not a sidenote, those are incredible draft picks and acquiring those types of players is the most important thing you can do.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
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Damn near identical per 100 stats for Ace/Tatum (big differences in FT% and a difference in assist, but everything else is pretty close)

Tatum played with two future rotation NBA players (Kennard/Grayson) along with two in/out of the league NBA players (Giles/Frank Jackson) and all their rotation guards/wings could shoot well. I would say Tatum's floor spacing and team around him was undeniably better, as well as being coached by a college GOAT. Tatum was also about 6 months older than Bailey as a Freshman. I would agree that Tatum was more polished, and more well-rounded, but it's not to some crazy degree. I feel like we are talking about Ace like he's GG Jackson.
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Yeah agree to disagree. Ace’s tool is definitely there and skills are something that can be taught so we will have to see how it works out for him. He’s definitely on the rawer side compared to college Tatum and got a long way to go. MPJ is still the best comp IMO.
 
jom2003 said:
Attacking me or calling me “irrational” still doesn't explain why we failed to make a trip to the WCF despite having “two future HoFers” when 12 other teams have done it over that same period. You judge a GM’s work by result and DL has nothing to show for it. Again I don't understand your concept of “success” when we are basically in the same category as the Kings and Pelicans. Just cant rationalize it I'm sorry.

You kept emphasizing how important DM/Rudy were to our franchise then why did we end up letting them go?

Could it be that DL already ran the team into the ground with his dumb move after dumb move until there was no way out?

And yes this is a draft thread so while DL does take some credit for DM/Rudy pick, we can still call out his other terrible draft picks. Bad moves add up over time especially for a small market team like us. No big name FA is gonna come here for the rescue so we have to nail our draft picks. But DL failed repeatedly until we had to do a full teardown just to keep our own FRP protected from OKC’s reach.
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So this is the last time I’m speaking on this point with you because this clearly isn’t a good faith argument. We’re not having a conversation, you’re talking past me arguing against a larger point that I did not making while constantly showing my actual point that people dismiss Don and Rudy like it’s nothing.

You hold onto this 12/15 fun fact like it means so much. Let me tell you, it doesn’t. No situation is the same and being so blindly results based is actually the exact opposite of how you should judge things. There is no value in being willfully ignorant to the difference in situations. It is not my fault if you choose to be a simpleton and put so much stock in arbitrarily drawing this hard line. Not only is it a bad way to judge a GM as a whole because of the different situational factors, I’m not actually talking about DL’s entire GM record. I’m talking about how much people downplay Don and Rudy which you can’t help yourself from doing.

There is so much that goes into building a team. Much of is situational/luck and that has nothing to do with the GM. And for the stuff that does happen to do with the GM, it doesn’t have much to do with Don and Rudy. I will repeat this for the last time, I am not arguing for DL being an amazing GM. So stop trying to argue against him being bad as a whole, you’re not making a point there. I am talking about Don and Rudy. The failures outside of the draft do not make Don and Rudy worse picks. When talking about a draft record, the stuff besides drafting is irrelevant. Every time you say he made horrible moves outside down and Rudy, you are making my point. We can list out all the dumb moves that I’m sure you’re aware of….but the only way you can help your argument of downplaying Don and Rudy is to mention good moves. You would have to convince me that the success we did have wasn’t attributed to them but other factors. The fact that you keep arguing for my point shows you really just want to whine and complain about DL and are not here to discuss anything with me.

Now to actually talk about his draft record, you’re absolutely right that these other small draft picks matter. But if drafting Grayson Allen is a disaster….how significant is drafting Gobert at 27? The significance of those decisions are not at all the same, and yet we always choose to make a big deal about someone like Allen and try to completely downplay Don and Rudy. It’s not like we didn’t have success because those guys weren’t good enough draft picks. You make it seem as though those guys are incapable of going to higher heights, and that just isn’t true at all. DL fell extremely short in a lot of areas outside of the draft and Quin was too stubborn of a coach to change. Those things were major causes in our inability to make the finals but have nothing to do with Don and Rudy and the value of making those picks. There was a long list of things that prevented us from going further. Don and Rudy not being good enough is not on it.
 
KqWIN said:
So this is the last time I’m speaking on this point with you because this clearly isn’t a good faith argument. We’re not having a conversation, you’re talking past me arguing against a larger point that I did not making while constantly showing my actual point that people dismiss Don and Rudy like it’s nothing.

You hold onto this 12/15 fun fact like it means so much. Let me tell you, it doesn’t. No situation is the same and being so blindly results based is actually the exact opposite of how you should judge things. There is no value in being willfully ignorant to the difference in situations. It is not my fault if you choose to be a simpleton and put so much stock in arbitrarily drawing this hard line. Not only is it a bad way to judge a GM as a whole because of the different situational factors, I’m not actually talking about DL’s entire GM record. I’m talking about how much people downplay Don and Rudy which you can’t help yourself from doing.

There is so much that goes into building a team. Much of is situational/luck and that has nothing to do with the GM. And for the stuff that does happen to do with the GM, it doesn’t have much to do with Don and Rudy. I will repeat this for the last time, I am not arguing for DL being an amazing GM. So stop trying to argue against him being bad as a whole, you’re not making a point there. I am talking about Don and Rudy. The failures outside of the draft do not make Don and Rudy worse picks. When talking about a draft record, the stuff besides drafting is irrelevant. Every time you say he made horrible moves outside down and Rudy, you are making my point. We can list out all the dumb moves that I’m sure you’re aware of….but the only way you can help your argument of downplaying Don and Rudy is to mention good moves. You would have to convince me that the success we did have wasn’t attributed to them but other factors. The fact that you keep arguing for my point shows you really just want to whine and complain about DL and are not here to discuss anything with me.

Now to actually talk about his draft record, you’re absolutely right that these other small draft picks matter. But if drafting Grayson Allen is a disaster….how significant is drafting Gobert at 27? The significance of those decisions are not at all the same, and yet we always choose to make a big deal about someone like Allen and try to completely downplay Don and Rudy. It’s not like we didn’t have success because those guys weren’t good enough draft picks. You make it seem as though those guys are incapable of going to higher heights, and that just isn’t true at all. DL fell extremely short in a lot of areas outside of the draft and Quin was too stubborn of a coach to change. Those things were major causes in our inability to make the finals but have nothing to do with Don and Rudy and the value of making those picks. There was a long list of things that prevented us from going further. Don and Rudy not being good enough is not on it.
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Yeah you talking apples while I'm taking about oranges. DM and Rudy were great picks. I'm not denying that at all. But everything DL did outside of drafting these two were meh. And overall his mistakes outweigh his achievements, just like Nico Harrison for the mavs. While he's responsible for us getting DM/Rudy, he's equally responsible for losing them. End of story.
 
I do think Ace is being a little shortchanged for his actual shot creation ability. Of course he will have to adjust to the NBA....but he is legitimately one of the best shotmaking prospects I can remember. It's not a GG situation where he shoots a lot but converts at a horrid rate. Ace doesn't shoot efficient shots, but he converts on them at a fairly high rate.

Shotmaking is the hardest way to make a living in the NBA, most players cannot do that. It's why I have some concerns with Tre as well....but it is a premium skill and when we talk about potential these guys have it. I think I believe in Tre's feel/offensive package more, but Ace also has good potential on defense.

TBH, I still think Kas might have a better chance than both to be an offensive star.
 
KqWIN said:
I do think Ace is being a little shortchanged for his actual shot creation ability. Of course he will have to adjust to the NBA....but he is legitimately one of the best shotmaking prospects I can remember. It's not a GG situation where he shoots a lot but converts at a horrid rate. Ace doesn't shoot efficient shots, but he converts on them at a fairly high rate.

Shotmaking is the hardest way to make a living in the NBA, most players cannot do that. It's why I have some concerns with Tre as well....but it is a premium skill and when we talk about potential these guys have it. I think I believe in Tre's feel/offensive package more, but Ace also has good potential on defense.

TBH, I still think Kas might have a better chance than both to be an offensive star.
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Yeah, I think we're in the "nitpicking" phase of evaluating Bailey as a prospect. Missing the forest through the trees, so to speak.

My only real gripe on his game is that it generally lacks some refinement across the board, vs. someone like Durant or Tatum in their freshman season. That said, he's still very productive (on reasonable efficiency) and young for his basketball grade, a la KD or Flagg. I'd compare him favorably to someone like Brandon Miller in recent years. If nothing else I think he's wired better mentally.

Hard to imagine he's not a 25ppg guy in the NBA pretty quickly. Maybe not a "true #1" on a title contender if we want to think in those terms but a key piece at minimum. Him and Lauri on the wings together with a playmaking backcourt would be a really tough cover.
 
bigmike said:
Yeah, I think we're in the "nitpicking" phase of evaluating Bailey as a prospect. Missing the forest through the trees, so to speak.

My only real gripe on his game is that it generally lacks some refinement across the board, vs. someone like Durant or Tatum in their freshman season. That said, he's still very productive (on reasonable efficiency) and young for his basketball grade, a la KD or Flagg. I'd compare him favorably to someone like Brandon Miller in recent years. If nothing else I think he's wired better mentally.

Hard to imagine he's not a 25ppg guy in the NBA pretty quickly. Maybe not a "true #1" on a title contender if we want to think in those terms but a key piece at minimum. Him and Lauri on the wings together with a playmaking backcourt would be a really tough cover.
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I think it's pretty easy to imagine him not being a 25 ppg quickly because there's simply not many of those guys. Ace is the most theoretical out of the top 6 IMO, and he's definitely not the type of prospect I'm drawn to. But he does have a lot of tools/attributes. Sometimes you have to shoot for the stars and bet on heavy development. His general feel and bbiq are pretty awful which is the big red flag for me, but his raw talent is as good as anyone.
 
KqWIN said:
I think it's pretty easy to imagine him not being a 25 ppg quickly because there's simply not many of those guys. Ace is the most theoretical out of the top 6 IMO, and he's definitely not the type of prospect I'm drawn to. But he does have a lot of tools/attributes. Sometimes you have to shoot for the stars and bet on heavy development. His general feel and bbiq are pretty awful which is the big red flag for me, but his raw talent is as good as anyone.
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I'm going to disagree on this point. They're unrefined, clearly. But I see his attacking nature more as a reflection of 1) his confidence as a scorer and 2) the dude is fiery and goes really, really hard. I'd rather a prospect like that you have to rein in, teach, etc. than someone who is just naturally more passive.

But I'm more bullish on him than most. I recognize my bias here.
 
Just watching random conference tourney games today.

Nick Martinelli is an extremely interesting player. Turn on the Northwestern game 2nd half and watch. The dude is a funny scorer. Probably has zero NBA shot, but I could see him being a great European player. He jumps on his FT's, which I honestly thought was illegal to do.
 
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