For People Who Think Hayward's Decision was Predetermined

[NUMBERICA]

If the rules regarding TPE's have changed and it hard caps the team taking on the signer, yeah, that's a big and very legit deal. I haven't heard that until today, however.

 

[infection]

Assets are exchanged, not given away for free. Jazz got TPE from Bulls in exchange for a 2nd round pick with the Boozer deal. It wasn't because Boozer was loyal to the Jazz and exerted influence over the Bulls to get the deal done. No traded player is going to harm his new team by demanding they give something for nothing. Talk about getting off on the wrong foot.

Did DL offer a 2nd for the TPE? Who knows, I've never heard that rumor. But Ainge is not an altruistic guy.

Goodwill has never flowed in the NBA in this manner and never will.

TPEs aren't assets that are traded or given. They're exceptions that don't exist until they'e generated from salary imbalances in trades.

Remind me what that Boozer deal exception brought us. Is there a website that traces all the trades for Utah?

Big Al.

If I was Aigne I'm not giving Utah **** though and I dont get why he would. Boston is in the driver's seat with how many assets they have. People have to suck their teat.

The combination of it not affecting him, playing a gentleman's game, and throwing his son's political campaign a bone to work with to combat the terrible PR fallout from his dad luring away Hayward.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If the rules regarding TPE's have changed and it hard caps the team taking on the signer, yeah, that's a big and very legit deal. I haven't heard that until today, however.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

Question 20 near the end. I will be honest... I am pretty sure someone else mentioned it to me... not like I came up with it. I thought it was just Ainge being a butthole at first. They still probably would have been fine though... so I'm cool considering Danny Ainge evil and no good.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The combination of it not affecting him, playing a gentleman's game, and throwing his son's political campaign a bone to work with to combat the terrible PR fallout from his dad luring away Hayward.

i think the biggest issue is they would have been hard capped. If we sent a second and there were no other ramifications I think he'd do it. He'd get something for nothing.

Chicago as noted really threw us a bone... I think most teams don't operate as ruthlessly as some suggest Ainge did/should. There will be a time when you need a little help and that goodwill can go far.

 

[infection]

i think the biggest issue is they would have been hard capped. If we sent a second and there were no other ramifications I think he'd do it. He'd get something for nothing.

Chicago as noted really threw us a bone... I think most teams don't operate as ruthlessly as some suggest Ainge did/should. There will be a time when you need a little help and that goodwill can go far.

I'm pretty sure it had been standard practice so no, GMs in general haven't done what Ainge did. Pretty sure even Cleveland got a TPE after Dan Gilbert's letter. It's kind of funny to me that people continue to play the "Ainge is competitive" angle of why it's all rational, failing to see the big picture of how some good will can also help Ainge... but whatevs.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm pretty sure it had been standard practice so no, GMs in general haven't done what Ainge did. Pretty sure even Cleveland got a TPE after Dan Gilbert's letter. It's kind of funny to me that people continue to play the "Ainge is competitive" angle of why it's all rational, failing to see the big picture of how some good will can also help Ainge... but whatevs.

that stuff comes back to bite you... it is a small group and sometimes you should play nice. Not saying it will have a material affect... but if they negotiate that way teams should do the same to them... Cleveland kinda negotiated dirty in the IT deal and got Zizic thrown into the deal.

 

[Ron Mexico]

If giving up the trade exception hurt Boston in some way with their salary cap then I understand why they didnt do that. Some of that salary cap stuff is way over my head.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Where he promptly shot 42% from the field, and 30% from three for a team that won, what, 25 games?

I disagree. He's trying to make money, they're trying to save it. He didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was worth a max on his own merit. If you're a spoiled child, yeah, I guess you could resent that and hold onto it for three years. But he's a conservative, so it's all the more laughable that he's butt hurt that a business made business decisions.

Sure, but it speaks to a team's belief in you. Like I said, I think it's understandable to feel slighted when someone doesnt show belief in you.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Sure, but it speaks to a team's belief in you. Like I said, I think it's understandable to feel slighted when someone doesnt show belief in you.

I suppose it can be viewed as "understandable" for someone else. Humility and sensibility don't suggest that is understandable, and I wouldn't share his viewpoint.

If he's mad we stuck with Corbin, well, that's something, but it's not something to hold onto for three years. I wish we would've hired Stevens, regardless of how much I love Quin. Passing on Stevens and Budenholzer just to have the right coach to tank with, let Carroll and Millsap walk, and then end up with Exum as the "prize" is a tremendous kick in the pants and a lesson to be learned on how difficult and risky it is to tank.

This team easily could've been Hayward, Millsap, Giannis, and Gobert coached by Stevens. Rough to think about, but we got Mitchell, Gobert, and Quin, so that's pretty sweet.

 

[silesian]

TPEs aren't assets that are traded or given. They're exceptions that don't exist until they'e generated from salary imbalances in trades.

An asset is anything that has value. TPEs are assets.

Teams can choose to create value by generating a TPE by doing a SNT instead of a free agent signing (see Boozer deal, many others).

Teams are not likely to give an asset away for nothing, for 2 reasons:

(1) They are strengthening their competition (let's say Al Jefferson becomes a stud and then Boston loses a game to the Jazz.

(2) they can get value in return (2nd round draft pick).

They are not going to make a competitor better out of the goodness of their hearts. They get something back in return or they are stupid businessmen/ competitors


Scenario 1: boozer signs with Chicago as FA. Jazz get or receive no assets.
Scenario 2: boozer signed by Jazz, traded along with a 2nd round draft pick to Chicago. Jazz exchange a 2nd round draft pick for a TPE.

 

[silesian]

This team easily could've been Hayward, Millsap, Giannis, and Gobert coached by Stevens. Rough to think about, but we got Mitchell, Gobert, and Quin, so that's pretty sweet.

How do we get Gianis and Gobert without the tank?

 

[infection]

An asset is anything that has value. TPEs are assets.

Teams can choose to create value by generating a TPE by doing a SNT instead of a free agent signing (see Boozer deal, many others).

Teams are not likely to give an asset away for nothing, for 2 reasons:

(1) They are strengthening their competition (let's say Al Jefferson becomes a stud and then Boston loses a game to the Jazz.

(2) they can get value in return (2nd round draft pick).

They are not going to make a competitor better out of the goodness of their hearts. They get something back in return or they are stupid businessmen/ competitors


Scenario 1: boozer signs with Chicago as FA. Jazz get or receive no assets.
Scenario 2: boozer signed by Jazz, traded along with a 2nd round draft pick to Chicago. Jazz exchange a 2nd round draft pick for a TPE.

And scenario 2 is what happened (essentially), which has been standard of practice when someone loses a max guy. Sure, you can say you're strengthening the competition, but it takes a pretty concrete thinker to not be able to think outside the box enough to see a much bigger picture here.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I suppose it can be viewed as "understandable" for someone else. Humility and sensibility don't suggest that is understandable, and I wouldn't share his viewpoint.

If he's mad we stuck with Corbin, well, that's something, but it's not something to hold onto for three years. I wish we would've hired Stevens, regardless of how much I love Quin. Passing on Stevens and Budenholzer just to have the right coach to tank with, let Carroll and Millsap walk, and then end up with Exum as the "prize" is a tremendous kick in the pants and a lesson to be learned on how difficult and risky it is to tank.

This team easily could've been Hayward, Millsap, Giannis, and Gobert coached by Stevens. Rough to think about, but we got Mitchell, Gobert, and Quin, so that's pretty sweet.

I think when you leave a place that has generally been good to you, you need excuses... pointing to the negotiations, coaching issues, not moving the rebuild along is fair but those are pretty vanilla complaints... anytime you have a 6-7 year relationship there will be some baggage and bad experiences.

His criticisms were valid but show some short sightedness... we sruck with you built around you and paid you... a lot of what he became was in part because of what we did to help him.

The real reason he left... he wanted to be with his coach, he wanted to make more all star teams, and he thought he’d have an easier path to the finals. It is easier to point at someone else’s mistakes and let them accept the blame.

 

[NUMBERICA]

How do we get Gianis and Gobert without the tank?

Jazz had picks 14 and 21 that year. Giannis lasted to 15, Gobert to 27. If they don't trade for Burke, they could've just drafted both.

I'm not as critical of the organization for drafting Burke as many, and I'm not as certain that Corbin called the shot to go after Burke, but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. In short, I don't know if they would've drafted Giannis at 14, but I'm about positive they would've gotten Gobert at 21, and I think Corbin exerted some significant influence in going after Burke.

The point is; they were both there. Jazz could've had both.

 

[silesian]

I disagree. Plenty of GMs have goodwill with each other and look for win wins for each team. Gms deal with each other all the time and look to build good relations when possible especially when it does not effect their own team. Ainge is different than that though. He does not care about burning bridges.

Regarding the speculation that DL would have given up a 2nd for a trade exception, that would be fine if true. But the scenario we were discussing is very different. Many naive fans believe that Hayward should have used his leverage to force Ainge's hand to force an SNT. The SNT structure would be a win only for the Jazz (a win-blank). Why would Ainge even waste his time structuring that deal, when he just signs Hayward? If DL offered an asset (e.g., 2nd rounder) for the SNT, that is a completely different scenario.

Goodwill does have value, but have you ever seen a GM give up an asset for free just to help his buddy? There has to be some tangible value in return.

 

[silesian]

Jazz had picks 14 and 21 that year. Giannis lasted to 15, Gobert to 27. If they don't trade for Burke, they could've just drafted both.

That is not where we are drafting if we keep Milsap and don't tank.

 

[NUMBERICA]

That is not where we are drafting if we keep Milsap and don't tank.

Yeah it is. The Jazz let 'Sap walk in '13 and we're talking about the '13 draft.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Goodwill does have value, but have you ever seen a GM give up an asset for free just to help his buddy? There has to be some tangible value in return.

Lebron and Bosh in '10 (Miami had the outright cap space). Boozer in '10 (Chicago had the outright cap space).

There is a tangible value in exercising goodwill. Even though Boston won the Cleveland trade, they still gave up more than they had to at first glance and I think a lot of that is GMs don't like how Ainge operates. He's openly complained that the asking price from the Celtics on the trade market is higher. Sure, some of that is probably that they know Boston have more to pay with, but I think some of that is Ainge is a **** and nobody wants to do business with him.

 

[infection]

Regarding the speculation that DL would have given up a 2nd for a trade exception, that would be fine if true. But the scenario we were discussing is very different. Many naive fans believe that Hayward should have used his leverage to force Ainge's hand to force an SNT. The SNT structure would be a win only for the Jazz (a win-blank). Why would Ainge even waste his time structuring that deal, when he just signs Hayward? If DL offered an asset (e.g., 2nd rounder) for the SNT, that is a completely different scenario.

Goodwill does have value, but have you ever seen a GM give up an asset for free just to help his buddy? There has to be some tangible value in return.

Is there really a question of whether DL would trade a second rounder to be able to obtain a $30M TPE? We've ended up selling 2nd rounders for money because we don't use them. And the tangible return to Ainge would get him 1) the ability not only to land a free agent, but pick up a free second rounder for doing so, 2) help his son's campaign, 3) stay in the good graces of Utah should they deal together in the future.

You'd have to be going out of your way to be an *** to look past all that, which is what he appears to have clearly done.

 

[RandyForRubio]

If I was Aigne I'm not giving Utah **** though and I dont get why he would. Boston is in the driver's seat with how many assets they have. People have to suck their teat.

I don’t get why it’s so hard for people to get this.