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For People Who Think Hayward's Decision was Predetermined

silesian said:
Regarding the speculation that DL would have given up a 2nd for a trade exception, that would be fine if true. But the scenario we were discussing is very different. Many naive fans believe that Hayward should have used his leverage to force Ainge's hand to force an SNT. The SNT structure would be a win only for the Jazz (a win-blank). Why would Ainge even waste his time structuring that deal, when he just signs Hayward? If DL offered an asset (e.g., 2nd rounder) for the SNT, that is a completely different scenario.

Goodwill does have value, but have you ever seen a GM give up an asset for free just to help his buddy? There has to be some tangible value in return.
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Like I said its not giving up an asset. If it hurt Boston in anyway I understand why he didnt do it. But if it was indifferent to them then its just being spiteful and unwilling to cooperate. If the only reason he didnt do it is because its extra paperwork that is pretty lol worthy and a silly reason. Also it could have helped Boston to do a sign and trade. Instead they had to do a different deal to create space.

Also if this deal was isolated maybe it was just how it worked out but Ainge is notorious for burning bridges in the NBA and a disliked GM by other teams.
 
JustTheTip said:
I don’t get why it’s so hard for people to get this.
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Me neither. So imagine the following scenario: Boston and Utah are both after the same player(s). Team X needs or wants to shed salary as well as get picks and prospects in return. Boston only has players with 1 or more years left on their contracts. Utah has a $30m trade exception.

Now that gentleman's move by Ainge comes back to bite him in the ***. Ainge is the smartest and mosy ruthless GM in the business. Despite his reputation other GM's keep dealing with him. I hate the guy, but he gets my vote for GM of the year.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Like I said its not giving up an asset. If it hurt Boston in anyway I understand why he didnt do it. But if it was indifferent to them then its just being spiteful and unwilling to cooperate. If the only reason he didnt do it is because its extra paperwork that is pretty lol worthy and a silly reason. Also it could have helped Boston to do a sign and trade. Instead they had to do a different deal to create space.

Also if this deal was isolated maybe it was just how it worked out but Ainge is notorious for burning bridges in the NBA and a disliked GM by other teams.
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If it is just the gentleman's thing to do to give up a TPE for nothing, then why did Chicago require a 2nd in the Boozer deal? DL had a great relationship with the Bulls front office, why did they screw him by requiring a 2nd?
 
silesian said:
If it is just the gentleman's thing to do to give up a TPE for nothing, then why did Chicago require a 2nd in the Boozer deal? DL had a great relationship with the Bulls front office, why did they screw him by requiring a 2nd?
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DL? You mean KOC? I'm all in on getting a TPE for a second rounder, so you could strike the argument of "do it for nothing."
 
infection said:
And scenario 2 is what happened (essentially), which has been standard of practice when someone loses a max guy. Sure, you can say you're strengthening the competition, but it takes a pretty concrete thinker to not be able to think outside the box enough to see a much bigger picture here.
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Please go back and read the thread -- you are missing my argument completely. I'm retorting to those who say Ainge should have given the TPE for nothing. Giving it up for a 2nd is sensible, but we don't know if DL offered this or not.
 
I think we offered a second... we would have to give something in the deal.

Here is the thing you are all seeming to miss... It would have hard capped them. I am not sure they were going to exceed the amount, but I believe that was the bigger issue.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Lebron and Bosh in '10 (Miami had the outright cap space)
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Old CBA, and the Heat could not execute the deal they wanted without the SNT. So the Cavs had leverage. I think they got 2 firsts and a second for LeBron, but check me on that. I don't remember all the details, but trust me, it is COMPLETELY apples-to-oranges with the Haywood situation.
 
silesian said:
If it is just the gentleman's thing to do to give up a TPE for nothing, then why did Chicago require a 2nd in the Boozer deal? DL had a great relationship with the Bulls front office, why did they screw him by requiring a 2nd?
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That is a gentleman's agreement. A late 2nd is worth very little and is just offering back something in good faith. That is generally how it works, it goes both ways.

Its a very safe assumption Jazz would have given up a 2nd for this with Boston but they had no interest in negotiating anything within reason. It was rumored that is what would happen. Obviously all of it is just speculation. Thats just how Ainge works and Hayward had no interest in getting involved at all.
 
I don't love rules that do the opposite of their intention. That's exactly what this hard-cap with SnT's does to the team losing the free agent. **** sucks.
 
infection said:
Is there really a question of whether DL would trade a second rounder to be able to obtain a $30M TPE? We've ended up selling 2nd rounders for money because we don't use them. And the tangible return to Ainge would get him 1) the ability not only to land a free agent, but pick up a free second rounder for doing so, 2) help his son's campaign, 3) stay in the good graces of Utah should they deal together in the future.

You'd have to be going out of your way to be an *** to look past all that, which is what he appears to have clearly done.
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Value of 2nd rounders is not entirely clear. This article puts the value north of $2 million, which is likely a bit high. But it certainly more than $1 million. They expire in 1 year. Is there any trade that DL had in mind to burn up to $30M this past year? They have cap space to make all the moves they made, so it would have to be a trade for a high-value contract player. Would they have traded for PG13 in an imbalanced trade if they had the TPE? If there was not a realistic trade for a big contract player. not, why give up the pick? Again, all the talk about DL being willing to offer a 2nd and Ainge unwilling to do the deal is what you guys want to believe is true. But it seems to me to be an unsubstantiated guess. Prove me wrong, find a quote and a source and I'll eat crow.

How does Ainge doing a SNT for a 2nd rounder give Ainge the ability to land a free agent? That is news to me, but there are strange things in the CBA that I don't understand, so please educate me.
 
He doesn't have half the personality and charisma that Mitchell has shown in his rookie season.
Enjoy Boston Haywood, the competition is getting rough over there...
 
silesian said:
Value of 2nd rounders is not entirely clear. This article puts the value north of $2 million, which is likely a bit high. But it certainly more than $1 million. They expire in 1 year. Is there any trade that DL had in mind to burn up to $30M this past year? They have cap space to make all the moves they made, so it would have to be a trade for a high-value contract player. Would they have traded for PG13 in an imbalanced trade if they had the TPE? If there was not a realistic trade for a big contract player. not, why give up the pick? Again, all the talk about DL being willing to offer a 2nd and Ainge unwilling to do the deal is what you guys want to believe is true. But it seems to me to be an unsubstantiated guess. Prove me wrong, find a quote and a source and I'll eat crow.

How does Ainge doing a SNT for a 2nd rounder give Ainge the ability to land a free agent? That is news to me, but there are strange things in the CBA that I don't understand, so please educate me.
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Regarding DL giving up a second rounder for a $30M TPE... yeah, not much evidence out there for that, similar to this:

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459
 
Jazzta said:
He doesn't have half the personality and charisma that Mitchell has shown in his rookie season.
Enjoy Boston Haywood, the competition is getting rough over there...
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Uh, Boston is set up now to become the most stacked team in the NBA ever. Haywood might win a ring from behind the bench.
 
silesian said:
Thanks for confirming that you've got nothing to back up your hypothesis.

How would you have used the $30M TPE? An imbalanced trade for CP3? For PG13? There were so many options out there.
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Over the next couple years we have all our second rounders plus two from other teams. If you’re really suggesting that we don’t know if DL would be willing to trade one for a $30M TPE because we don’t have any evidence for it, that’d be as silly as saying we don’t know if DL would be willing to trade Tomic for a first rounder because we don’t have any evidence to suggest he would.

If common sense isn’t good enough to deduce that DL would trade a second rounder for a $30M TPE, then you may as well shut down this entire site and we can stop talking about anything.

Would DL trade our second rounder this year for a first rounder? I dunno. I don’t have any evidence that says he would if he could.
 
infection said:
Would DL trade our second rounder this year for a first rounder? I dunno. I don’t have any evidence that says he would if he could.
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Yes, because just like a 2nd round pick being a reasonable market value for a TPE and a first round pick is a reasonable market value for a 2nd round pick. Your analogy is spot on!

Next time, just say "i don't have any information" and move on, it will be less embarrassing for you.
 
silesian said:
Yes, because just like a 2nd round pick being a reasonable market value for a TPE and a first round pick is a reasonable market value for a 2nd round pick. Your analogy is spot on!

Next time, just say "i don't have any information" and move on, it will be less embarrassing for you.
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I’d be quite surprised if you could find another person on this forum who wouldn’t be certain that DL would trade a second rounder for a $30M TPE. The answer to that question is so self-evident that you’d need evidence to say he wouldn’t do it.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Here is the thing you are all seeming to miss... It would have hard capped them. I am not sure they were going to exceed the amount, but I believe that was the bigger issue.
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I did miss that. Could you please explain how the SNT would have hard-capped the Celtics, while signing Haywood as a FA would not have hard-capped them? Thanks.
 
infection said:
I’d be quite surprised if you could find another person on this forum who wouldn’t be certain that DL would trade a second rounder for a $30M TPE. The answer to that question is so self-evident that you’d need evidence to say he wouldn’t do it.
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I think you are arguing with yourself over minutiae, or just being obtuse for some reason. I did not say DL did not offer a 2nd. I did not say he should not have offered a 2nd. I'm saying no one knows whether he did or not, a point that you already conceded. Your opinion that DL would have been a complete idiot for not offering a 2nd is honkey-dorey with me. So what are you disagreeing with exactly?

Again (one last time) -- my main point has been that there is no reason for Ainge to give away the TPE for nothing. Nor is there any precedent for this type of transaction in the NBA under the current CBA. So bashing Ainge for following the current norm seems silly. I'm not a lover or defender of Ainge. I'm a Sixers fan from the 70s and 80s so I hate the Celtics more than y'all do. There are plenty of real reasons to hate them, we don't need to fabricate new ones.
 
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