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GD AMA

appreciate the honesty mate. My first question is as i've got a lot of depression / anxiety / adhd family history what is the latest with the potential of psychadelics microdosed for these condtions as opposed to the traditional ssri treatments.

Also how do explain my insistance that Jordan pushed off to those who insist i'm mental for still carrying that grudge ??

One more serious question though, what is the very favourite place you've travelled to firstly without kids and then with kids.

cheers dude
 
1) What do you think about the trend toward non-MD/midlevel practitioners (i.e. Psychologists, LCSWs, etc.) having the ability to prescribe medications?
So I'm going to have to answer your questions piecemeal. They're really good questions but they do require some background to adequately answer. Here's the first one:

Though the term mid-level provider is sometimes applied to masters level therapists, it's often most referring to nurse practitioners and physician assistants. I'll definitely answer your intended question but I'll address mid-level providers generally first. The original idea behind a nurse practitioner was to take people who already had extensive experience within a particular field and then have them be trained as nurse practitioners. This is most certainly not the standard currently, as many (I don't have the actual numbers but I'd probably go almost as far as saying most) nurse practitioners never worked as an RN (if they did, it was on the side as they were going through training). What really differentiates a physician is residency training. While medical school is an essential part, it's really in residency where you learn a specialty and have extensive training and experience in the entire spectrum of your field. This doesn’t exist in the mid-level world and there really isn't a substitute for that. Unfortunately, what can often be seen is that, despite the level of training and experience required to be a physician in any particular specialty, there are many, many examples of that training pathway falling short. So, simply training is not necessarily "sufficient" for being a competent physician. This leads to the implied argument that since it's not sufficient it is therefore not necessary. As there have been physician shortages across the board in most specialties, these started to be filled by mid-level practitioners and particularly over the past 15-20 years, the number of programs that have opened up has exploded exponentially. Whereas it takes a minimum of 7 years to produce a physician, here you can produce a mid-level provider in two years, and the nursing lobbies have really stepped it up, whereas all physician groups (in particular the AMA) are absolutely impotent and many physicians have become afraid of the super-imposed social dynamic at play with the old stereotype of a physician being a paternalistic entity that is antiquated. So the answer to healthcare coverage issues has been to throw more mid-level providers into the system to “meet” the demand. In most states, supervision for mid-level providers falls under a physician who can’t really supervise every thing they do, but ultimately the physician carries 100% of the liability.

There is certainly a role for mid-levels, but currently mid-levels are being filled in to health systems in roles that are too broad and often too little supervision. For instance, I struggle with the idea of mid-levels taking over primary care.

Anyhow, with how this relates to psychiatry is that the largest “mid-level providers” by population will be nurse practitioners, as they have created a specific training pathway (psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner or PMHNP). I’d guess that the majority of these programs are online. About ten years ago while I was in residency, I was admitting a patient from the emergency department and I was giving report to the charge nurse. They had another person with them shadowing them and, when I inquired, they had told me that they were completing their clinical requirements for their PMHNP. Somehow they were able to get their “hours” by shadowing a charge nurse, which was absolutely mind-blowing.

But by far the nurse practitioners have been the largest group that’s moved into this territory. As a result of that, it sets a standard of comparison (“if they can do it, why can’t we?”).

Where your question is concerned is with regard to prescribing psychologists, you mentioned LCSWs and others but there is no legislation anywhere regarding any of them being able to prescribe, nor do I ever believe there will be. The number of psychologists who prescribe is insignificant. I've never met one or heard of one in any professional capacity (in real life) in my entire career, with the exception of just hearing about it online. That said, every couple years there's proposed legislation in some new state regarding prescribing psychologists. But it's not as simple as just handing them a prescription pad. This started in the 90s when the Department of Defense had a pilot program where they took a total of 13 doctoral level psychologists that were well experienced in their field and put them through a rigorous two-year training program that honestly resembles what you would envision a psychiatry physician assistant program to look like (those don't exist). Only 10 completed that program. They had them take numerous basic science courses (that’s a term, it’s not saying the classes are basic) alongside the first and second year medical students at the Uniformed Health Services University of Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland, during their first year. Their second year they were embedded within the psychiatry residency training program at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where they participated in at least 6 months of inpatient psychiatry, and then did a combination of emergency psychiatry, consultation services, or outpatient care for the next 6 months. They also participated in on-call. If you ever look into any legislation regarding prescribing psychologists, you will invariably hear people refer to the "Department of Defense study." It isn't a study at all. Nobody has actually read through it. It was simply the report handed over to congress after the program concluded in 1997. There were no metrics used, it was simply an extensive review of what the program was and their experiences of when they asked supervisors and clinic staff how things were going with the prescribing psychologists. In any case, I can't really complain about that program because it legitimately was a program that you can make an argument gives prescriptive authority to psychologists, because they're essentially completing the same type of curriculum and rigor that physician assistants are completing, just that this was a little more specific to psychiatry. But that accounts for only 10 psychologists who were trained in the 90s and were only practicing within the military.

Of any state that has legislation in place for prescribing psychologists, each state requires that you be a doctoral level psychologist and additionally do a two year masters degree in psychopharmacology. These programs do not at all resemble what the DoD modeled. All of these masters programs are done online and are part time (advertising only a couple hours per week). There is no formal clinical training, just that you go out there and shadow some physician to get "experience" and they require something like 80 hours. To put that in perspective, psychiatry residency is typically working about 60 hours per week over the course of four years. A third year medical student will graduate with more formal psychiatric clinical training than any of these programs would put out. Every single physician in the US will have completed, at minimum, a 4 week psychiatry rotation in their third year, yet nobody is clamoring for PCPs to be doing more psychiatry (even though they're tasked with a lot of it), and no PCPs are out there arguing that expertise.

But the more important part of your question that isn’t being asked. We’re jumping to the “solution” of having more people prescribe medication but we’re not asking what the actual question is that has that for a solution. This is too large of a discussion to have but there are numerous different ideas that are being thrown out and conflated with each other where we talk about a ‘shortage’ of psychiatric providers. One is that you have people who don’t have good access to a psychiatrist. Many times, if you do have access to a psychiatrist, it’s going to take you months or upwards a year to be able to get in. But what are people needing to see a psychiatrist for? Current cultural views and insurance reimbursement favors medication intervention. There are plenty of reasons for that, some good, some bad, some neutral, but we have to acknowledge each piece of that pie. Because there’s a comparative oversupply of therapists and comparatively few people prescribing, the push to expand scope is more about financial issues and securing the future of any given field, than it is about asking what’s really best for patients.

A big part of this discussion is the idea that this will open up access for patients. However, this isn’t really the case. The people that need care are in underserved areas and have experienced a downward drift socioeconomically. They are often people with more complex diagnoses than garden-variety depression and anxiety. People wishing to add prescriptive ability to their practice aren’t doing so to treat people with schizophrenia with antipsychotics. That won’t happen. What’s most likely is that 95+% of prescriptions are going to be for SSRIs and then likely some brand-name medications like Latuda that’s going to be thrown at anything labeled bipolar disorder. But the more important question to ask is if there’s really a shortage of SSRIs being prescribed in the US.
 
So I'm going to have to answer your questions piecemeal. They're really good questions but they do require some background to adequately answer. Here's the first one:

Though the term mid-level provider is sometimes applied to masters level therapists, it's often most referring to nurse practitioners and physician assistants. I'll definitely answer your intended question but I'll address mid-level providers generally first. The original idea behind a nurse practitioner was to take people who already had extensive experience within a particular field and then have them be trained as nurse practitioners. This is most certainly not the standard currently, as many (I don't have the actual numbers but I'd probably go almost as far as saying most) nurse practitioners never worked as an RN (if they did, it was on the side as they were going through training). What really differentiates a physician is residency training. While medical school is an essential part, it's really in residency where you learn a specialty and have extensive training and experience in the entire spectrum of your field. This doesn’t exist in the mid-level world and there really isn't a substitute for that. Unfortunately, what can often be seen is that, despite the level of training and experience required to be a physician in any particular specialty, there are many, many examples of that training pathway falling short. So, simply training is not necessarily "sufficient" for being a competent physician. This leads to the implied argument that since it's not sufficient it is therefore not necessary. As there have been physician shortages across the board in most specialties, these started to be filled by mid-level practitioners and particularly over the past 15-20 years, the number of programs that have opened up has exploded exponentially. Whereas it takes a minimum of 7 years to produce a physician, here you can produce a mid-level provider in two years, and the nursing lobbies have really stepped it up, whereas all physician groups (in particular the AMA) are absolutely impotent and many physicians have become afraid of the super-imposed social dynamic at play with the old stereotype of a physician being a paternalistic entity that is antiquated. So the answer to healthcare coverage issues has been to throw more mid-level providers into the system to “meet” the demand. In most states, supervision for mid-level providers falls under a physician who can’t really supervise every thing they do, but ultimately the physician carries 100% of the liability.

There is certainly a role for mid-levels, but currently mid-levels are being filled in to health systems in roles that are too broad and often too little supervision. For instance, I struggle with the idea of mid-levels taking over primary care.

Anyhow, with how this relates to psychiatry is that the largest “mid-level providers” by population will be nurse practitioners, as they have created a specific training pathway (psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner or PMHNP). I’d guess that the majority of these programs are online. About ten years ago while I was in residency, I was admitting a patient from the emergency department and I was giving report to the charge nurse. They had another person with them shadowing them and, when I inquired, they had told me that they were completing their clinical requirements for their PMHNP. Somehow they were able to get their “hours” by shadowing a charge nurse, which was absolutely mind-blowing.

But by far the nurse practitioners have been the largest group that’s moved into this territory. As a result of that, it sets a standard of comparison (“if they can do it, why can’t we?”).

Where your question is concerned is with regard to prescribing psychologists, you mentioned LCSWs and others but there is no legislation anywhere regarding any of them being able to prescribe, nor do I ever believe there will be. The number of psychologists who prescribe is insignificant. I've never met one or heard of one in any professional capacity (in real life) in my entire career, with the exception of just hearing about it online. That said, every couple years there's proposed legislation in some new state regarding prescribing psychologists. But it's not as simple as just handing them a prescription pad. This started in the 90s when the Department of Defense had a pilot program where they took a total of 13 doctoral level psychologists that were well experienced in their field and put them through a rigorous two-year training program that honestly resembles what you would envision a psychiatry physician assistant program to look like (those don't exist). Only 10 completed that program. They had them take numerous basic science courses (that’s a term, it’s not saying the classes are basic) alongside the first and second year medical students at the Uniformed Health Services University of Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland, during their first year. Their second year they were embedded within the psychiatry residency training program at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where they participated in at least 6 months of inpatient psychiatry, and then did a combination of emergency psychiatry, consultation services, or outpatient care for the next 6 months. They also participated in on-call. If you ever look into any legislation regarding prescribing psychologists, you will invariably hear people refer to the "Department of Defense study." It isn't a study at all. Nobody has actually read through it. It was simply the report handed over to congress after the program concluded in 1997. There were no metrics used, it was simply an extensive review of what the program was and their experiences of when they asked supervisors and clinic staff how things were going with the prescribing psychologists. In any case, I can't really complain about that program because it legitimately was a program that you can make an argument gives prescriptive authority to psychologists, because they're essentially completing the same type of curriculum and rigor that physician assistants are completing, just that this was a little more specific to psychiatry. But that accounts for only 10 psychologists who were trained in the 90s and were only practicing within the military.

Of any state that has legislation in place for prescribing psychologists, each state requires that you be a doctoral level psychologist and additionally do a two year masters degree in psychopharmacology. These programs do not at all resemble what the DoD modeled. All of these masters programs are done online and are part time (advertising only a couple hours per week). There is no formal clinical training, just that you go out there and shadow some physician to get "experience" and they require something like 80 hours. To put that in perspective, psychiatry residency is typically working about 60 hours per week over the course of four years. A third year medical student will graduate with more formal psychiatric clinical training than any of these programs would put out. Every single physician in the US will have completed, at minimum, a 4 week psychiatry rotation in their third year, yet nobody is clamoring for PCPs to be doing more psychiatry (even though they're tasked with a lot of it), and no PCPs are out there arguing that expertise.

But the more important part of your question that isn’t being asked. We’re jumping to the “solution” of having more people prescribe medication but we’re not asking what the actual question is that has that for a solution. This is too large of a discussion to have but there are numerous different ideas that are being thrown out and conflated with each other where we talk about a ‘shortage’ of psychiatric providers. One is that you have people who don’t have good access to a psychiatrist. Many times, if you do have access to a psychiatrist, it’s going to take you months or upwards a year to be able to get in. But what are people needing to see a psychiatrist for? Current cultural views and insurance reimbursement favors medication intervention. There are plenty of reasons for that, some good, some bad, some neutral, but we have to acknowledge each piece of that pie. Because there’s a comparative oversupply of therapists and comparatively few people prescribing, the push to expand scope is more about financial issues and securing the future of any given field, than it is about asking what’s really best for patients.

A big part of this discussion is the idea that this will open up access for patients. However, this isn’t really the case. The people that need care are in underserved areas and have experienced a downward drift socioeconomically. They are often people with more complex diagnoses than garden-variety depression and anxiety. People wishing to add prescriptive ability to their practice aren’t doing so to treat people with schizophrenia with antipsychotics. That won’t happen. What’s most likely is that 95+% of prescriptions are going to be for SSRIs and then likely some brand-name medications like Latuda that’s going to be thrown at anything labeled bipolar disorder. But the more important question to ask is if there’s really a shortage of SSRIs being prescribed in the US.
Wow-- thank you for such a detailed response. A couple of brief comments back:
- 100% my bad thinking LCSWs were on the table for prescriptive privileges-- I thought I had seen that was happening in some states. I was/am wrong. Thanks for the correction.
- Fully agree with your concerns re: midlevels essentially taking over primary care. The rabbit hole is way too deep to go down here, but I think it's fair to say med students deciding on a specialty currently see nothing but disincentive to do primary care-- the patient volumes required in order to make a living, within the context of meeting a mess of government standards to qualify for Medicaid reimbursements, combined with the liabilities... Blech. What a morass. On the one hand, I personally believe regulation is needed to create accountability and protect patients, but insurances and other private interests have gotten their fingers into it and made a very unpleasant environment out of primary care-- and all of healthcare, for that matter, but family practice really is a nightmare. That said, I'm sure you experience plenty of that in Psych, and know way more about it than I pretend to.
- I really appreciate your explanation of how prescribing Psychologists are allowed to even be a thing, with genuine respect for Psychology as a profession. The path that's been established makes me feel a lot more comfortable with it-- they have to really want to do it in order to make it happen, and it seems clear there's never going to be a significant muddying of the waters in that respect.
- As you've alluded to, the bigger picture of whether or not prescribing more medication is really the solution-- particularly as it applies to underserved areas/populations-- is complex and impossible to tackle here. Your statement that "current cultural views and insurance reimbursement favors medication intervention" is spot-on, though, and pretty damned meaningful coming from a practicing Psychiatrist. The existential dialog happening in your head on a bad day must be riveting... :) But that said, there is still a legitimate need not being met due to the shortage of folks with an 'MD' behind their name, and that simply cannot be argued. A high percentage of military vets experiencing PTSD living in rural areas, and therefore lacking the services needed to treat the host of diagnoses related to their complex trauma, has few solutions right now. And that's just one example in an absolute ocean of underserved individuals who are impacted by trauma and need help. So many people pass from early childhood into the next phases of life with what may as well be a predetermined path of hardship; I feel like nothing short of a cultural revolution, not to mention a massive restructuring of the role insurance companies get to play in how and when services are offered, is going to change any of that with any kind of permanency. I can only imagine how often your inclinations as a provider get cut off at the pass by government regulation that looks like it's producing an awfully convenient outcome for private entities-- namely big pharma and the insurance companies.

Anywho, I could ramble forever about this stuff. Thanks again for this amazing response. Looking forward to your thoughts on my other questions, if you have the time and energy for it.
 
the patient volumes required in order to make a living
I think this depends on what kind of living one is talking about. A good friend of mine became a primary care doctor, and he does complain about the workload, and he made over $200k last year, not counting the bonuses and owner payouts from the clinic he owns and runs with 3 other doctors. He is probably clearing close to $500k, I would guess, all in, and his lifestyle shows it - bought his daughter a Tesla Model S Plaid, limited with customizations, for her sweet 16.

Another guy I know went another route and runs a clinic for a hospital company, can't remember which one. He makes like $185k salary and sees very few patients, largely now because he is overseeing a group of PA's and such and a couple of residency dr's. So he handles the tougher cases, and manages the operation. He gets bonuses too. Still clearing around $250k I would bet.

One of these is in Phoenix, the other in Portland, just for context.

So if you are willing to "settle" for say $100-150k per year, then you could do that with far fewer patients I would imagine.
 
I think this depends on what kind of living one is talking about. A good friend of mine became a primary care doctor, and he does complain about the workload, and he made over $200k last year, not counting the bonuses and owner payouts from the clinic he owns and runs with 3 other doctors. He is probably clearing close to $500k, I would guess, all in, and his lifestyle shows it - bought his daughter a Tesla Model S Plaid, limited with customizations, for her sweet 16.

Another guy I know went another route and runs a clinic for a hospital company, can't remember which one. He makes like $185k salary and sees very few patients, largely now because he is overseeing a group of PA's and such and a couple of residency dr's. So he handles the tougher cases, and manages the operation. He gets bonuses too. Still clearing around $250k I would bet.

One of these is in Phoenix, the other in Portland, just for context.

So if you are willing to "settle" for say $100-150k per year, then you could do that with far fewer patients I would imagine.

That's a very cordial call-out on your part. Thanks! I tend to step on myself with my opinions, sometimes. I guess I wrap quality of life into the definition of "making a living", but I don't have any direct experience with it-- just exposure through my work and friends I also have who are in practice. Your friend has way more smarts than I'll ever dream of having. Seriously, good for that guy. His daughter certainly isn't complaining about the workload, is she? :)
 
That's a very cordial call-out on your part. Thanks! I tend to step on myself with my opinions, sometimes. I guess I wrap quality of life into the definition of "making a living", but I don't have any direct experience with it-- just exposure through my work and friends I also have who are in practice. Your friend has way more smarts than I'll ever dream of having. Seriously, good for that guy. His daughter certainly isn't complaining about the workload, is she? :)
Well that is part of the work-life balance thing you are talking about. Everyone has to find that for themselves, I suppose. That particular friend is on his 3rd marriage and judging by the last time we were together for a barbecue I seriously doubt this one will work either. He is pretty distant from his kids, this was an attempt to curry favor with his daughter, who is now pretty much estranged from him. Those are the trade-offs I imagine. For that friend, he is beyond well-off, net worth probably around 50 mill. That is what he got instead of relationships with his family, I suppose. But we all make them to some degree. I chose early in my career, after a rough go of it in a high-usage company, let's just say, that I didn't want to squander my time with my family chasing money. I have always done well enough that my wife hasn't had to work, but we have never been rich. Sometimes you second guess, but for the most part, we are happy with it.
 
Well that is part of the work-life balance thing you are talking about. Everyone has to find that for themselves, I suppose. That particular friend is on his 3rd marriage and judging by the last time we were together for a barbecue I seriously doubt this one will work either. He is pretty distant from his kids, this was an attempt to curry favor with his daughter, who is now pretty much estranged from him. Those are the trade-offs I imagine. For that friend, he is beyond well-off, net worth probably around 50 mill. That is what he got instead of relationships with his family, I suppose. But we all make them to some degree. I chose early in my career, after a rough go of it in a high-usage company, let's just say, that I didn't want to squander my time with my family chasing money. I have always done well enough that my wife hasn't had to work, but we have never been rich. Sometimes you second guess, but for the most part, we are happy with it.
Ah, the diminishing returns on repeat marriages phenomenon. Best wishes to him. Coincidentally, my net worth is also around $50 mil. Spiritually, I mean, as I do not currently have the actual portfolio and whatnot-- just believe me. The good news is my wife and kids are just spoiled enough, much like yours. I mean, not to flaunt, but we're probably going to have the inflatable pool up this weekend and everything. After I pick up dog poop.
 
2) There is a school of thought that certain modes of mental health therapy-- especially as it pertains to psychoanalysis-- are for people with 'Psy' in their credentials, and that social workers, marriage/family therapists, and others in that scope have damaged the credibility of mental health care. Super-curious about your opinions, and how you feel the various roles ought to play together in dealing with the mental health crisis in our country.
The vast majority of all therapists are masters level. I'd guess maybe 15% of therapists are actually doctoral level psychologists. There are a lot of things that are true on paper but fall apart in reality. For instance, there are knee-jerk responses of what types of therapies are "evidence-based" (the whole idea of "evidence-based" medicine is another discussion for another day) and then the idea or expectation is to plug people in with whatever has that label. As far as what therapies show evidence, there's also a pretty big selection bias with how we get that information. For instance, to produce evidence of what works, you have to have some kind of financial backing and then you have to have some kind of lobbying to promote that and get coverage. Cognitive behavioral therapy has become the panacea for most therapy. That's not a statement for or against it, just a statement of what is. In theory, CBT is manualized. This makes it particularly good for being able to be studied and somewhat standardized. It's supposed to be time-limited and, in research settings, that's easier to do. As a result, it's easier to show, "hey, here's problem X, and here's the change in Y [problems subsequent to X] over [insert time frame for therapy] when utilized." This then gets pushed into insurance reimbursement policy and gets parroted around as "such and such is evidence-based." The reality is, almost nobody is doing 'manualized' CBT (not saying they should or shouldn't, just that they aren't). Most everyone will utilize some kinds of CBT concepts, but the variability of what this is is large. So the theoretical we discuss as having an evidence base is a large leap from the reality of where the rubber meets the road. Therapy, when contrasted with medication, is sold as not having side effects, which is patently false. There are good therapists, there are bad therapists, and there are a lot of in between therapists. As much as a good therapist can help a patient, bad therapists or bad therapy can have horrible consequences. On an average, if I were to send someone to a doctoral level psychologist, I'll have a bit more confidence in knowing the background of that individual, but there are many masters level therapists that I'd trust over many PhD/PsyD therapists, but on average the doctoral level therapists should be much better trained and have a lot more experience to draw from.

Referring to therapists has been a difficult issue for me when there are very specific things I'd like because I never know if the therapist is going to have the same assessment and I've had it backfire a lot. In the outpatient world, I've sometimes taken on more of a therapy approach when needed, but it's never something where I'm seeing someone every week or every other week. I get approached by family, friends or acquaintances regarding some issue or another and while the technical answer is "get in with a therapist," I recognize that I don't know what that would even translate to or look like unless I have a good working professional relationship with that therapist to know what actually happens.

Maybe finding a therapist is like finding a mechanic. I'll think on that and see if there's a better analogy. [And this isn't exclusive to therapists, I'd say this for psychiatrists, too... or any kind of physician, to be honest.]


3) Related to #2, modalities-- evidence based and not-- are a dime a dozen (EMDR, ART, Narrative Therapy, Brainspotting, CBT, etc. ad nauseum). Yet evidence strongly suggests that really the act of doing something-- anything-- on the talk therapy front can be effective, once medical intervention has done/is doing its job. Thoughts on this? Do you have strong opinions about non-medical interventions, in terms of efficacy?
A big emphasis, again mostly in outpatient practice, is a concept called "psychodynamic psychopharmacology." It's a fancy term to would refer to the underlying belief a patient has about themselves, their struggle/illness, and the inherent meaning of what treatment represents (or doesn't represent). It's taking psychodynamic principles (a kind of psychotherapy) and applying it to the transaction that takes place between a physician and a patient with regard to their medication. You could broaden that to anything. A simple example would be patients going to the doctor for a viral illness, wishing to get an antibiotic, but being rebuffed by the physician and told something simple like getting rest or staying hydrated. The truth is that what the patient has (a virus) isn't going to be impacted by an antibiotic that is ineffective for viral illnesses. The reality of that doesn't change the frustration on the part of the patient, feeling like they wasted their time and money to be told something they could have done on their own, and feeling like the doctor blew them off and didn't take them serious. This latter part arises because of the psychodynamics of the situation. On the physician side, they feel that simply stating a truth ("antibiotics don't work for viruses") should quell that expectation from the patient. But it doesn't, and it creates frustration in the physician that doesn't understand or appreciate that.

So with regard to your question, there would be quite a bit to unpack. You're mentioning the idea of doing something/anything to be beneficial, and there's often a lot of truth in that. Think about when your life is disorganized or you're wanting to change something drastic in your life or feel you're headed in the wrong direction, but you take a small step and feel better about it. Perhaps it's cleaning your office or organizing out your car. The problems in your life are probably much, much bigger than whatever small act you did, but because you take action it tends to give you this moment of clarity that you're making progress. Any kind of intervention can provide that. When you've been delaying addressing some particular need but go to the doctor and receive some kind of treatment, a treatment that won't be effective for quite some time, you'll often feel a sense of relief and start to feel better about the situation not because the medication or intervention has immediately started to work, but because of what your efforts to get things addressed by going to the doctor actually represents. There is a body of research out there suggesting that the more important variable in therapy may not be the modality but rather the alliance between the therapist and patient. This is neither good nor bad, as it can be harnessed to direct a patient in the right direction, but can also be used in an unhealthy relationship between a therapist and patient and can contravene healthy developmental aims. We're obviously talking about this within the context of psychotherapy, but the same things are applicable to any kind of health treatment modality. There is a need to feel like you're in good hands, and an attentive health practitioner can do things that are not healthy in an objective fashion but are perceived as such subjectively. That's actually a pretty large issue in healthcare, and represents a very sizable proportion of what's actually happening in the world (for good or bad). It really isn't talked about or emphasized, though.

With regard to the last question, if I have strong opinions of non-medical interventions, I would sum this up by including both medical and non-medical interventions and I would state to not have an over-reliance on any one particular thing. I don't mean that by not relying on providing interventions, I mean it more in the context of relying on a "solution" or "answer" when you don't even have an adequate understanding of what the problem or question was. Often we get caught up in health rituals that mirror religious practice. For those who stick with the mainstream, it's really easy to identify this pattern in people who step out of the mainstream and witness the religious-like approach to some kind of health practice. It's harder for people to recognize, or even acknowledge that it's the same problem, when that same type of thinking exists within mainstream healthcare. It exists in the exact same way and in the exact same frequencies as outside of the mainstream, but exists in a blind spot because it's reaffirmed by the mainstream.

I don't know that this really answers your question. It requires stepping back quite a bit for some context before addressing the question. There are many modalities. Some with good evidence, some with evidence of harm, and lots with little evidence at all but always pushing theoretical mechanisms. I find myself quite agnostic, which is a challenging place to be with avid believers on all sides.
 
God bless you. I read electric meters for PSE&G (one of the larger utility companies out here) about 26 years ago. One day I was given a route that included the Trenton Psychiatric Hospital. The grounds were very large. The main building looked like some sort of gothic creation from 150 years prior. There were then random, smaller more modern residences throughout. I recall having to go into one such residence at one point. White walls that looked like they’d been painted 15 years prior. Nothing on the walls at all. One sofa. Little else. Maybe a chair. One table. I forget exactly. Patients wandering around in the room while I was there. Like zombies. It was unsettling.

Let’s just say the place was devoid of soul and life and that imo, they had no hope of ever “getting better.” The place was completely and utterly depressing.

It’s since closed iirc.

Mate of mine used to work in a massive asylum in the UK, had something like 3,000 patients, some people had lived there most of their lives. Its properly sad.
 
So I'm going to have to answer your questions piecemeal. They're really good questions but they do require some background to adequately answer. Here's the first one:

Though the term mid-level provider is sometimes applied to masters level therapists, it's often most referring to nurse practitioners and physician assistants. I'll definitely answer your intended question but I'll address mid-level providers generally first. The original idea behind a nurse practitioner was to take people who already had extensive experience within a particular field and then have them be trained as nurse practitioners. This is most certainly not the standard currently, as many (I don't have the actual numbers but I'd probably go almost as far as saying most) nurse practitioners never worked as an RN (if they did, it was on the side as they were going through training). What really differentiates a physician is residency training. While medical school is an essential part, it's really in residency where you learn a specialty and have extensive training and experience in the entire spectrum of your field. This doesn’t exist in the mid-level world and there really isn't a substitute for that. Unfortunately, what can often be seen is that, despite the level of training and experience required to be a physician in any particular specialty, there are many, many examples of that training pathway falling short. So, simply training is not necessarily "sufficient" for being a competent physician. This leads to the implied argument that since it's not sufficient it is therefore not necessary. As there have been physician shortages across the board in most specialties, these started to be filled by mid-level practitioners and particularly over the past 15-20 years, the number of programs that have opened up has exploded exponentially. Whereas it takes a minimum of 7 years to produce a physician, here you can produce a mid-level provider in two years, and the nursing lobbies have really stepped it up, whereas all physician groups (in particular the AMA) are absolutely impotent and many physicians have become afraid of the super-imposed social dynamic at play with the old stereotype of a physician being a paternalistic entity that is antiquated. So the answer to healthcare coverage issues has been to throw more mid-level providers into the system to “meet” the demand. In most states, supervision for mid-level providers falls under a physician who can’t really supervise every thing they do, but ultimately the physician carries 100% of the liability.

There is certainly a role for mid-levels, but currently mid-levels are being filled in to health systems in roles that are too broad and often too little supervision. For instance, I struggle with the idea of mid-levels taking over primary care.

Anyhow, with how this relates to psychiatry is that the largest “mid-level providers” by population will be nurse practitioners, as they have created a specific training pathway (psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner or PMHNP). I’d guess that the majority of these programs are online. About ten years ago while I was in residency, I was admitting a patient from the emergency department and I was giving report to the charge nurse. They had another person with them shadowing them and, when I inquired, they had told me that they were completing their clinical requirements for their PMHNP. Somehow they were able to get their “hours” by shadowing a charge nurse, which was absolutely mind-blowing.

But by far the nurse practitioners have been the largest group that’s moved into this territory. As a result of that, it sets a standard of comparison (“if they can do it, why can’t we?”).

Where your question is concerned is with regard to prescribing psychologists, you mentioned LCSWs and others but there is no legislation anywhere regarding any of them being able to prescribe, nor do I ever believe there will be. The number of psychologists who prescribe is insignificant. I've never met one or heard of one in any professional capacity (in real life) in my entire career, with the exception of just hearing about it online. That said, every couple years there's proposed legislation in some new state regarding prescribing psychologists. But it's not as simple as just handing them a prescription pad. This started in the 90s when the Department of Defense had a pilot program where they took a total of 13 doctoral level psychologists that were well experienced in their field and put them through a rigorous two-year training program that honestly resembles what you would envision a psychiatry physician assistant program to look like (those don't exist). Only 10 completed that program. They had them take numerous basic science courses (that’s a term, it’s not saying the classes are basic) alongside the first and second year medical students at the Uniformed Health Services University of Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland, during their first year. Their second year they were embedded within the psychiatry residency training program at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where they participated in at least 6 months of inpatient psychiatry, and then did a combination of emergency psychiatry, consultation services, or outpatient care for the next 6 months. They also participated in on-call. If you ever look into any legislation regarding prescribing psychologists, you will invariably hear people refer to the "Department of Defense study." It isn't a study at all. Nobody has actually read through it. It was simply the report handed over to congress after the program concluded in 1997. There were no metrics used, it was simply an extensive review of what the program was and their experiences of when they asked supervisors and clinic staff how things were going with the prescribing psychologists. In any case, I can't really complain about that program because it legitimately was a program that you can make an argument gives prescriptive authority to psychologists, because they're essentially completing the same type of curriculum and rigor that physician assistants are completing, just that this was a little more specific to psychiatry. But that accounts for only 10 psychologists who were trained in the 90s and were only practicing within the military.

Of any state that has legislation in place for prescribing psychologists, each state requires that you be a doctoral level psychologist and additionally do a two year masters degree in psychopharmacology. These programs do not at all resemble what the DoD modeled. All of these masters programs are done online and are part time (advertising only a couple hours per week). There is no formal clinical training, just that you go out there and shadow some physician to get "experience" and they require something like 80 hours. To put that in perspective, psychiatry residency is typically working about 60 hours per week over the course of four years. A third year medical student will graduate with more formal psychiatric clinical training than any of these programs would put out. Every single physician in the US will have completed, at minimum, a 4 week psychiatry rotation in their third year, yet nobody is clamoring for PCPs to be doing more psychiatry (even though they're tasked with a lot of it), and no PCPs are out there arguing that expertise.

But the more important part of your question that isn’t being asked. We’re jumping to the “solution” of having more people prescribe medication but we’re not asking what the actual question is that has that for a solution. This is too large of a discussion to have but there are numerous different ideas that are being thrown out and conflated with each other where we talk about a ‘shortage’ of psychiatric providers. One is that you have people who don’t have good access to a psychiatrist. Many times, if you do have access to a psychiatrist, it’s going to take you months or upwards a year to be able to get in. But what are people needing to see a psychiatrist for? Current cultural views and insurance reimbursement favors medication intervention. There are plenty of reasons for that, some good, some bad, some neutral, but we have to acknowledge each piece of that pie. Because there’s a comparative oversupply of therapists and comparatively few people prescribing, the push to expand scope is more about financial issues and securing the future of any given field, than it is about asking what’s really best for patients.

A big part of this discussion is the idea that this will open up access for patients. However, this isn’t really the case. The people that need care are in underserved areas and have experienced a downward drift socioeconomically. They are often people with more complex diagnoses than garden-variety depression and anxiety. People wishing to add prescriptive ability to their practice aren’t doing so to treat people with schizophrenia with antipsychotics. That won’t happen. What’s most likely is that 95+% of prescriptions are going to be for SSRIs and then likely some brand-name medications like Latuda that’s going to be thrown at anything labeled bipolar disorder. But the more important question to ask is if there’s really a shortage of SSRIs being prescribed in the US.


Great post. When I started at the I worked at in 2007 our ECATT team as it was known then was I think exclusively PHD level psychologists and most were able to prescribe meds. That all started to change about ten years ago because they weren't able to recruit staff to cover retirements at that level of training and so it devolved to a masters level qualification and i think it has devolved again so that EMH staff now just have to be enrolled in a masters program. What I have seen first hand is a steady decline in patient management, compulsory patients spending 3 or 4 days in the emergency department the system is in complete crisis.

Additionally we have a new mental health act that requires a consultant psychiatrist to see the patient before they can be admitted to secure ward, a psychiatrist must be contacted and must approve of any chemical or mechanical restraint before it can be used. Its a nightmare there are no consultants on site after 4:30pm most days and trying to get one on the phone at 3 in the morning while you're wrestling a 300 pound psychotic meth head is insane. Not all hospitals interpret the new act this way either it depends on what they're legal team oks. Its ****ing nuts.

Do you guys use ECT over there? and if so what is the criteria for use?
 
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